Welcome back to A Slut’s Guide to Happiness, where your body is imperfectly imperfect and it’s safe to be as sexual, kinky, queer or slutty as you want. 

I’m your host, Vanessa Cliff and today I will be talking with a dear friend, a creative well of silly and perverted ideas and the Chief Video Officer at Cliff media, Orion Pax.

He is now loud and proud about being a pansexual man, but that hasn’t always been the case. For more than two decades, he’s described being closeted, hooking up with gay men or people with penises through anonymous encounters arranged online and often executed in the dark or with masks. We’ll get into this world. You’re going to get to see a deep dive into this experience. 

One of the things I think is really powerful about understanding this world is that it challenges our collective understanding about how many people, especially men with penises, have desires that are not exclusively straight.

I’m saying men as people with penises because we’re talking about a normative world of men who are trying to fit in. We’re talking about cisgender men who are trying to fit into the mold of straightness and monogamy and marriage and the expectations of a proper masculine man. Yet, they also have secret desires for connection with other men, for sexual connection, sexual adventure, emotional connection, or homoerotic or romantic desire.

Studies suggest that only 4.5% of men are either bisexual or gay. The narrative is that a very small proportion of men have any interest in interacting sexually with other men. But these studies are, of course, based on self-reported data. So this actually means less than 5% of men are willing to admit that they have or want to have sex with other men.

So there’s there’s this vast world, this underground world of anonymous gay sex. Sex that is not talked about. Sex where men are saying, I like to suck dick, but I’m not gay. I’m with my wife. 

This isn’t a thing that’s advertised. People don’t go to work and they say “this weekend I fucked my wife and I fucked six other guys in the hotel.” It’s a quiet underground limbo zone. 

It’s possible we could have judgment about the space. But, in spite of all the narratives and the potential judgment, there’s also clearly something that valuable in this limbo zone between straightness and queerness. 

There’s an outlet for men who are still tied in some way to the expectations that society puts on men to be, to be a masculine, straight man. This underground world is an outlet for those people to express sexual desire and find connection, even while grappling with fear and stigma and shame about those desires. 

It’s also important to talk about because it’s not a small group of men who are participating in this. 

So today we’re going to look at what these experiences are, who the people are who are interacting with this world, what’s positive about it and what is challenging about it. We’ll also talk about recommendations for people who are interacting with this world. 

I’d like to also explore this without judgment, acknowledging the messy reality of all kinds of sexual desire and all different social locations that people are operating in. We are all on different stages in our journey of navigating a homophobic society where we, to quote Audre Lorde, “were not meant to survive”,

Everything that we are all doing is based on trying to find a way to survive and be who we are, doing the best that we can within this world.

Let’s dive in. Orion, thank you so much for joining us. Last time you talked with us about masturbation, and now you can talk to us about underground gay sex. So apparently, your role here is to just to divulge your secret life for the world to know. 

Orion: 

A couple of years ago, I would not be comfortable talking about this. I think joining Cliff Media and aligning with the values and feeling a lot more comfortable in my own skin has really helped me feel like it’s okay to talk about these things.

Vanessa: 

I want to later explore why you didn’t feel comfortable talking about this and how the shift happened. But first let’s orient ourselves to this underground world. 

I know you’ve said that you’ve been doing this for two decades. So that’s probably tons of encounters. Just to bring us into this world to start, can you think about one encounter and paint the picture for us? How did you find this guy? What was inside? Where did you go? What kind of place? What happened? How did you feel after?

Orion: 

Sure, I can tell you about the first time I ever did it. I may date myself, but this was an AOL chat room. I was in the male / male chat room. This was a big secret. I was horny and masturbating to it. It took me a few times of masturbating to want to take it to the next level. 

Vanessa: 

Because you were afraid of starting? It was just a fantasy at that point? 

Orion: 

Yeah, just masturbating, but then it’s that horny sexual energy that gives you the fuel to go. I decided I wanted to try this. So my first time, I thought, I’m talking to some guy. He’s an older gentleman. Much older. LIke, I was probably 22, I was very young and he was probably a grandad. 

Vanessa: 

Do you think he was more experienced sexually? 

Orion: 

Yeah, I knew he was. And he knew that I had no experience. So it took me a couple sessions to get comfortable talking to him. 

Vanessa: 

You had some AOL chat sessions before you saw him in person? 

Orion: 

Yeah. Then I decided to go over to his apartment. 

Vanessa: 

Was this your first time having sex with anyone? Or had you had sex with women before? 

Orion: 

Yeah, two women before. 

Vanessa: 

But you had never interacted with a guy before. 

Orion: 

Right. It was something I was interested in but ashamed of and secretive about. Because I wasn’t gay, it was important to me then I wasn’t gay. 

Vanessa: 

Was there shame attached to gayness growing up? Was it considered a derogatory word? 

Orion: 

Yeah, it was. Like “you’re being a pussy”, a fagot. That kind of stuff. I grew up in the projects. We were the poor white family on the block. Any sign of weakness was usually preyed upon. 

So I go to this guy’s house one night and knock on the door. He’s the apartment manager for an apartment complex and his apartment is set up like an office. If you were to go look at apartments, this is where you would go. But behind the door was his living space. So it was very weird. 

Vanessa: 

Were you there to fuck him or to get fucked? Or just licking his dick the first time? 

Orion: 

He was showing me how to clean myself out before getting fucked. 

Vanessa: 

That’s really cool he was helping you as a way of entering that world. 

Orion: 

Yeah, I remember asking him questions about it. He was suggesting that I take the water hose, the showerhead and just sit in the shower. 

I went to his house and we had pleasantries, getting that awkwardness out of the way. It was night so it was dark everywhere. We went into the backroom where he had his apartment, a two bedroom apartment and he took me into the bathroom explaining, this is where you should do this. 

So I get into the tub and start cleaning myself out. Then we got onto the bed, I was drying myself off. I wasn’t comfortable with kissing. It felt too intimate at that time in my life where I was just beginning to experiment with this. I had never kissed a guy before. 

But he was touching me and I was kind of touching him. I was feeling okay at this point. He sucked me for a bit, then I sucked him and got him hard. Then he said, okay now let’s fuck. I was super nervous about this because I didn’t want it to hurt. I was a little afraid of it. 

So I try the position where I’m on my back and it’s hard to get it in that way sometimes. He said you need more lube and a different position. So we flipped over to doggystyle position. He decided he was going to eat my ass which I’d never experienced before. I wasn’t sure how I felt about it. 

Vanessa: 

In addition to the shame attached to gay sex, there’s also the shame attached to the ass, the ideal that it’s unclean, we shouldn’t be doing this. But if you turn off your mind and lean into your body, it feels kind of good. 

Orion: 

Yeah, it took me a while to get there. Then he put on a condom and lubed it up. It took a while for him to even just get it in there. But he was trying to warm up and get it in. Then it slides in and he was trying to tell me to relax. But I was scared and couldn’t relax. 

I had told myself I wanted to do this and there I was. So I just let him do it. He didn’t last very long and thank god for that. After, I just kind of laid there and I think he was talking about his grandkids. I said “I’m going to go now”, he said I hope you get some good sleep, and then I left and never saw him again. 

Vanessa: 

It was an encounter just for the purpose of that sexual interaction and then done. 

Orion: 

Yeah, I was not seeking a further relationship. 

Vanessa: 

Did you know his legal name? 

Orion: 

Nope. 

Vanessa: 

Did you exchange pictures before you went into this encounter. 

Orion: 

Nope. I think phones and computers didn’t really have cameras on them at the time. You would have to take the picture with a digital camera then transfer it. So no, back in that time there were no pictures, it was just completely anonymous. 

Vanessa: 

One of the things about this encounter that’s interesting in comparison to some others that I’ve heard from you is that this guy seems like he was really caring. He showed you how to clean yourself out, he put on a condom and used lube. He was teaching and guiding you, which is beautiful. 

It’s interesting that there are lots of different kinds of connections, even within the context of anonymous, secretive gay encounters. I want to ask now about a very different kind of encounter, an instance where it was more like “wham bam thank you ma’am”. 

Orion: 

Yeah, I think I’ve felt a lot of shame about it. Like feeling like there must be a part of me that like this if it’s so recurring. 

Vanessa: 

For sure, it makes me think of when I was 14, I was in love with a woman, a girl, she was almost 18. We were hanging out all the time, kissing. And even for the first three months of us having sex, I said “I’m not lesbian”. Internalized homophobia runs deep, there’s so much societal shame that makes it harder for people to just be who they are. 

Orion: 

Yeah, it took a really long time for me to admit to myself, I’m actually attracted to people like penises. So for the long time that I was feeling shame about this, I purchased a mask, a hood mask. You can’t see anything. And that made me feel more comfortable because they don’t know who I am now. It’s like I have an invisibility shield. 

That led me to getting on different apps to find people. 

Vanessa: 

What are the apps, where do you find people? 

Orion: 

I suppose that’s changed over time. These days it’s Sniffie’s, which is a website almost like Grindr, kind of like what Craigslist Personals used to be. It specifically caters to gay and bi men. But it just says “men for men”, because there are a lot of “straight” guys. The ads are just talking about sex acts. 

Vanessa: 

Okay, so you had a mask on, you’re ready, your mouth is open. I assume the hole in the mask is for anonymous blowjobs?

Orion: 

Yeah. Well I usually will make some ad and then get naked. I unlock my door and just tell whoever to come in. They usually fuck my face, cum down my throat and then leave. 

Vanessa: 

So these are people who you haven’t had any conversation with, they just walk in, fuck your face and that’s it? 

Orion: 

Yeah, that’s the default for that kind of crowd because it’s accepted that’s what happens. 

Vanessa: 

So people aren’t like what the hell, why are you naked already, why do you have a mask? That’s just what’s expected? 

Orion: 

Yeah, that’s often how people are comfortable, not talking about it. 

Vanessa: 

People are not suggesting let’s go to the bar, have a drink, then come home and have sex, because that’s more like a date. That’s not what people Are looking for in this world. It’s more about sexual relief right now? 

Orion: 

Yeah. It’s kind of “pump and dump”. Cum in your ass or in your mouth and leave. 

Vanessa: 

So what are some of the wild and crazy things you see in some of these ads? 

Orion: 

It’s everything you can think of. 

I talked to this one guy once, he’s disabled and in a wheelchair, and he talked about how he would put on a mask, get on the bed with his head over the bed, and then just have guys come in to fuck his face. 

Vanessa: 

So it gives him an outlet where people are not interacting with his mobility differences, things you would experience if you were going on a date or having more complex sex. 

Orion: 

Exactly. 

I think a lot of this is closeted married men? 

Vanessa: 

How do you know? What are the signs? 

Orion: 

A lot of guys can’t host. They meet in a hotel. Well, the hotel guys are the ones that are traveling then looking to hook up. Or guys meeting in their car. Or only at specific hours of the day. 

It ranges from everything you can think of. Like right now, you can probably go on the app and find some party or an orgy going on. Just a lot of guys coming together. Then there are also gloryholes. 

I had an ex-partner, she and I used to go to the gloryhole at a theater here in town, an adult theater. I would watch her give blowjobs but I didn’t participate. But I learned the etiquette from watching her so I could do it on my own later. 

Vanessa: 

What was the reason that you chose not to participate in blowjobs while you were there with her? 

Orion: 

I didn’t feel comfortable, especially with this partner, the type of men she enjoyed were not open to interacting with men. She knew I liked men too but she didn’t really want to be close to it. 

Vanessa: 

It sounds like that kind of interaction in relationships may be part of why you ended up continuing the compartmentalized, separate, underground part of your life? 

Orion: 

Definitely. I thought about that with most partners, before I decided that I didn’t want to be monogamous anymore. I was done with that. But I was still feeling bad about seeking out men while in these types of relationships. It led to me feeling bad about myself, feeling shame.

Vanessa: 

It goes back to that same idea, shame that shows up in so many aspects of sexuality. And I think the thing that’s so crucial about understanding sexual shame is that it never just stays in one part of your life. If you’re feeling shame about your sexual desires or actions, that bleeds into how you show up and feel about yourself and relationships in your life in other ways. 

Orion: 

Yeah, that shame kind of chips away at your self-image. When you look at yourself in the mirror, you’re embarrassed about who you are. 

Vanessa: 

I remember you told me a story about sucking dick in a park. And I can imagine there are two different possible headspaces. 

There’s the shame, like this is so gross, I’m interacting with a person I don’t even know, I’m interacting with a guy doing gay things, I can’t tell anyone about this. 

And then there’s the other headspace, a different story like, I am creative, I’m adventurous, connecting with people of all genders, exploring possibilities and pushing my boundaries. 

Those are two different ways of thinking about the exact same thing. I wonder how many people who are exploring the world of anonymous gay sex are predominantly living in the first headspace, where it feels shameful and scary.  

When I think about the queer community, including gay and bi men, I think about how beautiful it is to be loud and proud, how god that feels. I wonder how you got to that headspace yourself, where sex with men became a source of positivity? 

Orion: 

I think for me, I got to the point where I thought to myself, what I’m uncomfortable with was admitting to myself was I liked having gay sex, but maybe it’s okay to admit that I like this. If I’m doing it this long, for two decades, that’s no longer bi-curious. 

Vanessa: 

Yeah, it took two decades, but you finally figured out, oh, I like chocolate ice cream, maybe it’s okay to be a person that likes chocolate ice cream. 

Orion: 

Yeah, that’s a good analogy. I was afraid to think about it as gay sex, I’d just say in my head I’m having sex. But really, if you’re a man having sex with a man, it’s gay sex. And that’s okay. I think you have to learn how to swallow that pill. 

It’s definitely a space that lives in limbo. It doesn’t feel accepted by the queer community, it’s not accepted by the straight community. It’s weird.

And it’s huge, all walks of life. All races. 

Vanessa: 

It feels very similar to our conversation about masturbation. A lot of people are doing it but very few people are talking about it. 

Orion: 

Yeah. Which makes it really difficult. 

Vanessa: 

I think it’s similar in sex work. When something is not allowed to be in the light of day, it’s less physically and emotionally safe. And a person entering that space is more alone. 

So what are some things people who are entering this underground world of gay sex or who are already in it can do to feel good about it, to have positive experiences? 

Orion: 

I think a lot of it is aligned with your mental health. For me, counseling has really helped. Talking to a counseling and getting feedback that it’s okay, it’s not a disorder. It helps to be able to share this anonymous world with someone, so it’s not your secret shame. 

When you’re hiding a piece of yourself because you don’t feel like you’re going to be accepted, it’s really hard. 

It’s really all walks of life and it’s so easy to access. It’s very easy to get laid every single day if you want. If you post an ad and say I got my ass up and I’m naked, you’ll find some folks. 

But it also has a huge flake rate. If you’re cruising ads while you’re masturbating, then someone responds back to you, come on over, here’s my address. Then they are like, oh shit, and you realize, I’m not going to this guy’s house, this is crazy. So they don’t go. 

Vanessa: 

It’s pretty different from setting up a date with a guy to meet at a restaurant or go to the movies. Before a date, you might both be excited about it all week, whereas the world of anonymous sex often involves quick transactions and fleeting moments of horny energy. So it’s important that people understand it’s not personal when flaking happens. 

Orion: 

I also think it’s important for people to find one person, whether that’s a counselor or a friend or a partner, and tell them about what you’re doing. Telling someone helps to take away the shame. 

Having a partner that is turned on by this part of my life, that was big for me. I’d never had that before. In one relationship, it was something that was kind of accepted about me, but not celebrated. My current partner celebrates it in a way and sometimes wants to join me in these slutty activities, which is also a turn-on. But I have the ability to separate that from her and decide, I’m also going to do it without you because I’m accepting this about myself. 

I’m finally feeling like, I want to do this, I can do this. You only live once. 

Vanessa: 

You have this abundance of sexual energy. So you establish your boundaries and let your partner know, I’m going to do this, I want to share it with you. It reminds your partner, I’m not saying I’m gay and can’t be with you, I just have sexual energy and desire for people with all different kinds of bodies, people of all different genders. I’m going to go explore it. 

Sometimes it’s going to be in the light of day. Sometimes, even when telling my partner the truth, it’s still underground, anonymous, transactional, in the dark, simply because those can be sexually desirable characteristics of interactions.

Orion, thank you very much for sharing this secret world and some of the experiences you’ve had with it. For folks who are out in that secret world right now, I see you and don’t judge you. I’m grateful you’re finding some ways to explore your desires and hope you can release shame about it and allow yourself to experience joy.

This has been another edition of A Slut’s Guide to Happiness, with your host Vanessa Cliff and our guest today Orion Pax. 

You can find us wherever you get your podcasts, including on Apple and Spotify, as well as on cliffmediaproductions.com. If you’re over the age of 18, you can also check out our adult video content on cliffmediaproductions.com

And most of all, I invite you to join us in the pleasure of being awkwardly human, naked and without pretense. 

Let’s get free.