Welcome back to A Slut’s Guide to Happiness where your body is perfectly imperfect and it’s safe to be as sexual, kinky, queer, or slutty as you want. 

Today I am talking with two dear friends, which I am so excited about. We have Hazel Havoc, who you may know from previous episodes. She is a wicked smart pro-domme and educator and goofball, and also the Chief Learning Officer at Cliff Media.

Today, Hazel is accompanied by a person who wants to go by just “Hazel Havoc’s husband”. That’s “triple H”. He has other roles in life, but that’s his role that we’re discussing for the day. 

The amazing thing that they’re going to share with us, in their vulnerability, is their experience doing porn while in a romantic relationship.

This is an increasingly common experience in the age of crowd-sourced porn content and sites like OnlyFans. Whether you’re producing your own content, putting out things that you have made at home with your partner or with other people, going to group shoots, or participating in the mainstream industry. 

We’re going to talk about how you navigate those conversations, as well as what kind of emotions can come up.

I’m excited for the juice of this conversation.

We’re going to get some dish, including things that I did not know until this week, even though it was an experience we had a couple of years ago. So Hazel and H3, thank you for being here, let’s jump in, what was the big event?

Hazel: 

It was the gangbang shoot you did a few years ago. There were, like, three different things that you were planning. So H3 was going up there. And it was like the first time he had planned to go to, like, another city to, like, go do something really formal.

And we were still really new in our relationship at the time. And I remember when he told me, I had a lot of anxiety at first. I remember he was talking about feeling nervous, too, and I told him, maybe you want me to go up there with you.

The week leading up to it, we talk about he’s going to go up there and he doesn’t really know what to expect. I shouldn’t speak for him. I’m just remembering kind of what he had told me. I mean, I knew some things, but, you know, I read about what was going on online, but I didn’t know what to expect other than what was planned for the event.

Vanessa: 

So you’re talking about this was a Cliff Media shoot. It was a big gangbang shoot. Lots of guys, coming for three scenes that were filmed and are now on Pornhub all over the place, including H3, your five cum shots in the third scene. There’s something like 9 million views online. 

Hazel: 

Exactly, that’s the one. That’s what he was going up for. So he leaves and it’s like a two hour drive up there. So he’s going to be gone from Portland to Seattle all night. And that’s when we didn’t live together. We’re just still doing our relationship. 

I was feeling so anxious. I had a lot of feelings of not being enough. I thought he’s going to go participate in this gangbang shoot. It’s going to be so hot and like, Vanessa is going to be the hottest person alive, which was true.

And like all these anxieties are going through my head. This is going to be like the best of everything, how could I possibly compare in any way? It’s all the typical insecurity that everybody experiences in a relationship. 

At the time, I kept a lot of that to myself because I didn’t want him to have that sort of hanging over him when he was there. I just wanted him to go and experience what he was going to experience, because I knew that those feelings were my stuff. 

I knew the anxiety feelings actually had nothing to do with what he was doing or what was happening. There were no boundaries that were being violated, we didn’t have agreements he was breaking. It was my own insecurities that were coming up.

Vanessa: 

So prior to this, had you all talked about being in a monogamous relationship, exclusive, or open? 

Hazel: 

We always talked about being open. It was definitely something that was part of our relationship. The part that was new was that this big porn shoot was something very specific happening. 

Vanessa: 

Was the fact that it was porn and going to be published online was that taking it to a different emotional level for you? 

Hazel: 

I think in some ways it made it different for sure. Because it was something that, at least to my knowledge, I didn’t think he had done before in the past. So it was a new thing in that regard. 

I spent a lot of time thinking, what does this mean? I mean, he had talked about being interested in creating content as well. I mean, H3, you can see you can speak to that if you want to.

Hazel’s husband: 

Yeah, this was a good way to get into stuff and try something that was interesting. 

Vanessa: 

So H3, you’re driving up. And Hazel, you’re looking at the clock and anxious. H3, you’re coming with your dick all ready, maybe also nervous? So what happens?

Hazel: 

Yeah, he’s coming. He calls me from the mall. Because the hotel that the shoot was in was near some mall. He calls you in the mall because he’s early, and, and was saying that he was feeling nervous. 

Vanessa: 

Aww, why are you two so cute? I love the communication. 

Hazel: 

I was feeling nervous. I wasn’t lying, yeah. And it was good to have somebody to talk to.

So he tells me that he’s nervous while he’s at the mall walking around. I’m just trying to be reassuring. It was like, “Hey love, I’m about to go to the gangbang, could you talk me through it? Oh there’s Claire’s.” Yeah it’s funny because that’s not the only time that does happen where he’s like, “I’m nervous. I don’t know what’s going on here.”

I’m like, just give him some time. It’s okay. I asked him, what are you feeling nervous about? He said just filming and meeting people, just in general. Both men and women and, you know, just just everything. Yeah.

Hazel’s husband: 

Yeah, it was just a lot of stuff I hadn’t done before. I just get nervous because I just don’t know what to expect. And I think, including this situation, after you get into it and break the ice and just see what’s going on and see what’s happening, it just gets a lot easier to be comfortable.

I picked this event pretty specifically too. I  think I got all the information offline. So, you know, with, with it being a gangbang and like several guys and like I could kind of like blend in. 

Vanessa:

It gives you a little bit more, not anonymity, but less pressure on you. 

Hazel’s husband: 

Right. I kind of chose it for those specific reasons. And then you know like proximity wise it was close enough. I have a work schedule that I have to work around. So it just ended up being on a night that I could make it. And it was close enough. You know, it would have been more convenient if it was in Portland. But it’s like Seattle is not that far away. 

Vanessa: 

So, that added another element to it. As you drove up and while you were waiting at the mall, it gave you both a lot of time to think about it right before it happened.

Hazel’s husband: 

Yeah, although that would probably have happened regardless of where it was at.

Vanessa: 

I talk about how the first porn scene that I did was a massage scene. I literally just had to lay face down and get a happy massage. But I was so nervous. So you’re talking about coming to a room where you don’t know how many people are going to be there, who those people are, who you get to fuck, you’re never done this before, and all of a sudden you’ve got to act and prepare and be all over the internet. I just give props to people who are brave enough to do that.

Then, Hazel, you hadn’t had this experience of him going to a gangbang, and the first gangbang that he’s going to is going to be all over the internet, with people that you don’t know, far away in another city. You were both brave, brave, humans. 

So walk us through, how did you navigate this? So he’s at the mall. You’ve you’ve talked to him and then what happens? 

Hazel: 

So he goes and he does all the registration stuff, and I don’t hear from him for a while. But I do get some text messages talking and it just comes in like short succession. Talking about your paperwork. Oh, god, all the paperwork, all the sexy papers.

He’s like, this is so organized. There are scripts, there are FAQs. I’m laughing about how organized it was. And I’m laughing because he’s so specific in what was going on. And, and, in telling me the things that were coming out that were important, was funny.

Hazel’s husband: 

And I think, going through that, the paperwork and stuff, helped with some of the nerves. 

Vanessa: 

Oh that’s good to know. Yeah, there’s the release forms and then also the script and FAQ is like what you’re looking at. 

Hazel’s husband: 

Yeah, both of those and it just made it something to take care of when you got in there. So it just gives you something to do when you’re first there. You knew that you had a task, something to work on, something to keep you busy. Something to focus on before everything started going on. 

The script, the way that it was all, you know, it was like a booklet. It was like written out scene by scene. We didn’t have specific lines that we had to read. There were certain people that had specific lines that were spoken throughout the stuff, but most of us, we’re supposed to act how we would normally act in that situation.

So the script was more like, setting the scene, the environment, expectations and plans for the night. That was really nice to have, especially given that it’s a scene and you want it to flow a certain way. That helped. 

Vanessa: 

That’s awesome to know. And I think that that is something that people who are thinking about getting into the porn industry might look for. 

Of course it’s important for producers who are operating ethically to be providing the release forms that are legally required. 

Then also I would expect some information provided to co-stars in advance about what’s going to happen. There needs to be consent conversations before filming. 

And I think it’s important for producers to be aware of when people new. It’s a gift for someone to trust you with that first new experience. 

Okay, so you’re reading over this paperwork. And Hazel, I know you very well and your nerdy ways. So I’m imagining that she’s like, oh there’s paperwork, I’m familiar with that. So the two of you are having this intellectual connection around the paperwork and then the scene starts.

Hazel: 

Yeah I can only assume it started because after a while I stop hearing from him. He might have said something like, things are getting started or he thinks things are gonna start soon. I remember, I knew there were going to be three different scenes. But I didn’t really know how long each one was going to take.

I knew there was a set time for the whole thing. So I was making some assumptions. I mean, you can imagine my brain – there’s three scenes, it’s supposed to be like four hours, it’s gonna be about an hour to an hour and a half per scene. 

Hazel’s husband: 

She’s got a calculator over here. 

Hazel: 

And I don’t know why. Because I don’t know what I’m expecting. I didn’t expect him to get in touch with me after each scene. I expect once things have started, they’re just going to keep going. But after each scene, he did, he either called me or texted me, he reached out in some way. 

Hazel’s husband: 

You remember the details better than me. But I do remember calling you and talking to you as it was going on. I remember there were definite pauses and breaks between the scenes. So you could have conversations or do whatever while waiting for the next one. 

And even though each scene was the same people and around sort of the same premise, the scenes were individual. So you had time to reflect on the scene that you already did and prepare for the next one. 

Vanessa: 

It’s interesting that this is a new sexual experience that you’re doing independently – you’re in a different city even – and yet you’re texting and calling her in between scenes. In a way, you’re emotionally doing this together as a couple. So what kind of things did you talk about during those conversations? Hazel, what kind of information did you want from him? 

Hazel: 

I remember when he would call and I wanted to know what it was like for him. I remember feeling sometimes afraid to ask the question because there were times where I was worried thinking, am I going to ask a question that I don’t really want to know the answer to? Is he going to say something that’s going to make me feel really terrible? 

But I also genuinely wanted to know what his experience was. When he would call me, he sounded so joyful. He just sounded like he was having fun. Then I was feeling like, man, I want to be there just to see how much fun he was having.

So in some ways, I was getting to live through him a little bit in that way. I would just start with asking, “So what happened?” 

Vanessa: 

One thing that I think is really beautiful and instructive about that is the way you approached your interest in his experience. I have had partners who will want to reassure me by saying that their experience with someone else wasn’t good. They’d say “oh, it’s nowhere as good as you, baby.” 

But instead, what you’re saying is that you valued hearing him saying “I’m having so much fun, I’m so happy.” And that wasn’t a source of fear; you were getting something positive out of hearing that from him.

What was going on in your mind or emotional state? How did you turn his enthusiasm for the event into a positive feeling for you?

Hazel: 

I love him and I want good things for him. I want him to be happy. I want him to have these experiences. I want him to go out and do things that bring him joy. And when he’s doing that, that makes me happy. 

I know that the stuff that gets in the way of that is mostly my own stuff. That stuff we talk about later. I can tell him, sometimes this comes up for me. It’s not that we need to change the behavior or do anything about it. It just helps us to know. Sometimes I can ask him to be gentle with me. 

Like when he was calling during the gangbang, that was part of being gentle. It’s part of being aware that, if I’m crying a little bit, it’s because sometimes things can come up. That can be hard. But to stay connected through it was important and I think really meaningful. It made it so that I could experience that joyfulness with him and be happy with him. 

It’s this feeling I learned about recently called compersion. The experience of experiencing joy for someone else’s joy. 

Vanessa: 

Interesting! I’ve heard it most within the context of a relationship, but you’re describing it even more broadly: if you love someone in the world, you want them to be happy. So you’re happy when they’re happy, even if it’s not directly pleasing you. 

So Hazel, we’re describing this incident where your husband was the gangbang slut out there, but during the rest of your life, you’re not exclusively sitting at home watching TV and reading books. Can you tell us about some of the group and public sex things that you do? And, Hazel’s husband, how do you handle that? 

Hazel: 

So the first time I really did something was on strip chat. I was doing live scenes with people and had a whole group of people that would get together. We called it Havoc’s Den. We’d get together weekly and it was so much fun. We’d record live impact sessions and play sessions. Lots of times, he was at work when this stuff was happening? 

Vanessa: 

(to Hazel’s husband): So you were at work and she’s playing at home with a bunch of people in a den. 

Hazel’s husband: 

Yeah, that was pretty much what was going down. It was great. There was a lot of preparation that went into it. It took place in our personal space. We hosted the event – even though I wasn’t around – we hosted it. 

Vanessa: 

I love that I’m hearing you say that even though you were not physically present, you had been so involved in the preparation that you felt like this was something that you were excited to co-produce. 

Hazel’s husband: 

Yeah, exactly. I was excited that we were able to put everything together and have it turn out the way we could have it turn out. So when I went to work and stuff was going on at home, I was totally cool, I was excited. 

When I’m at work, I’m obviously also thinking about other things, but I got breaks and the opportunity to engage with what was going on at home. So I was able to check in and see some of the progress and watch some of the live shows. That was nice. I was totally down with everything I watched. 

Hazel: 

Yeah, he’d often watch the shows during his breaks. He’d give me real time advice about things like the music is too loud, turn down the music. 

Vanessa: 

I’m sensing a theme here, even if slightly different. When he went to the gangbang, he called you to deal with his nerves and you offered support and were checking in and sharing the excitement and positivity of that experience. And then when you’re on strip chat and Havoc’s Den, you’re (Hazel’s husband) helping to provide the preparation, advice and feedback because you want her to be joyful and succeed in her sexy, slutty experience with that side of you. 

Hazel’s husband: 

Yes, absolutely. 

Vanessa: 

What do you think are some of the things that have allowed you to be successful in your porn and making this work? Like the normative straight marriage dynamic doesn’t typically include negotiating over how you’re going to incorporate porn in your relationship. 

Hazel: 

That’s true. 

Vanessa: 

So how have you gotten used to it? And what are some of the things in your communication or your boundaries in your relationship that makes this work for you? 

Hazel: 

I would say, for one, just doing it. Actually having the experiences and not just talking about it. Being unafraid to do those things even if we don’t always know what the outcome is going to be.

(to her husband): I know for me, I tend to me more “what if, what if, what if,” and you tend to not have those thoughts as much. 

So for me, it’s being brave enough to do those things even though I’m feeling these “what ifs” And I rely a lot on him, I get a lot of courage from him. Because he says “okay, what if, so what? Then what? We’ll figure it out as we go.” 

Vanessa: 

Yeah, you have different energy that balances each other out. 

Hazel: 

Yeah. I think for me, staying connected while we’re doing it is important, so one of us doesn’t feel excluded. 

Vanessa: 

I think another thing you mentioned is just doing it. It sounds like simple advice, but I think that’s really powerful because a lot of couples want to explore contracts, rules, and boundaries in advance. They want to figure out, plan out exactly how to ensure that they don’t experience jealousy or insecurity. They’re trying to ensure nothing bad happens, that the relationship doesn’t end. Sometimes that means talking for years to figure it all out, and sometimes that means never starting. 

But it sounds like, in each of your experiences, your learning came from just doing it, just starting the hard things. 

Hazel:

Yeah, I figure jealousy happens. It depends on what it is. Sometimes I feel envious that he is a penis owner and gets to go participate in some things that I can’t. 

Hazel’s husband: 

And I’m so glad that now you have your strap-on and you’re coming to participate in more of those things too. 

Hazel: 

Yes, you can fix that. Jealousy is just an emotion. We can deal with those things in the context of our relationship, through talking and communication. It requires one of us having the courage to speak to it. 

(to her husband): I know that when I’m feeling things like that, I can talk to you about them. And that’s a safe space to experience them. 

It doesn’t mean that I never experience jealousy. That’s just a normal thing to experience. Even being upset or afraid. But I don’t think those are reasons not to do something or encourage your partner to want to do something that brings them joy. I think those are different conversations. 

Vanessa: 

Yes! I love the idea of feeling the fear and doing it anyway. And you’re creating safe containers for each other to share those feelings and for it not to be a story about control. It’s not that you’re telling each other that you can’t do something because of these feelings. It’s like you’re examining these feelings outside of yourselves, and you’re a team together working on them. It’s really beautiful that you’ve navigated it and made it work for you. 

I’m wondering about the other side of it, beyond jealousy and fear, if there have been any positive benefits to your non-monogamous sexual activities and porn participation. To the extent that you feel comfortable sharing about your private lives, how has it benefited your relationship? 

Hazel: 

One of the biggest positive things after you (Vanessa) release the video shoots from the scenes he went to, was that we watched them together. It was so much fun to watch them together. It was hot to watch them. For one, they were just hot videos. And then to listen to him talk about the behind-the-scenes, what you didn’t see that was on camera and the things he knew about the guys. He would say, “I know who that guy is. I know that dick”. 

Vanessa: 

(to Hazel’s husband): And you probably knew the surprise cumshot that was coming at the end of the scene, you could tell her to watch out for it.

Hazel: 

Oh my god, he was so excited. He was like, “Here I come, it’s right here.” He was just so excited. And I was excited to watch and experience his joy. 

But even then beyond that, I watch that video when I’m masturbating. 

Vanessa: 

No you don’t, really?

Hazel: 

Yeah, all the time. Because I know where his parts are and it’s so funny, when I scroll through all the videos, I know he is right at that time stamp. I look for 13:16 so I could go to watch him.

And now there’s videos of him doing super hot shit that I can watch and get turned on by and masturbate to, so it has been really fantastic. So many a million of those 9 million views on that video are me. 

Vanessa: 

One element I’m hearing is that may feel relevant – Some people talk about a theory of intimacy, that when you’re too close together, that reduces the sexual tension. But if you’re seeing your partner, whether that’s you (Hazel’s husband) on strip chat, or you’re seeing him out there participating in a gangbang, you’re seeing other people enjoying your sexy partner. And that allows you to have a little distance that creates erotic energy. 

Hazel’s husband: 

Yeah, it’s super hot watching her do the work that she does. 

Hazel: 

That’s one of the biggest things I would have never guessed that would have been true. If someone would have asked me, “Would you masturbate to your husband’s porn?” I would have said no. And I would have been totally wrong. Because it’s super hot watching him be joyful and have a lot of fun. 

Vanessa: 

I have one last question for you all. This is on the different personas that we adopt sexually in a professional setting. It can be really authentic. You may be really authentically attracted to the person that you’re fucking in a scene. And you may want to engage in the way that you choose to engage in the scene; hopefully you do if there’s enthusiastic consent in the porn production. 

But also, you’re not necessarily showing up the same way that you would in a romantic relationship. I think that in particular, Hazel, you do a lot of pro-domme impact play in your professional work and I don’t know the extent that that shows up in your personal sex life. 

So can you talk about how you navigate these two different sexual personas? Is there some bleed over? How do you manage or compartmentalize and keep the boundaries clear so that both of these porn and personal sex spaces are healthy and positive? 

Hazel: 

(to her husband): Well, you don’t do any switching. 

Hazel’s husband: 

Right, no switching. 

Hazel: 

For me there was a point in time where we tried incorporating some impact play in our relationship and what I noticed is when I started hitting him, he was recoiling in a way that was really not positive. 

It was very tense, very painful. And he never really settled into a subspace time of zone that I usually see people settle into. His energy kept pulling away. Multiple times it happened. And then one day, I just remember being like, I can’t hit you. I don’t want to, it’s not fun. I can’t get into top space. You’re not going where you’re supposed to go.

Vanessa: 

Right, because everyone kinks in different ways. And that doesn’t mean anything about the level of intimacy in the relationship. It’s just what works for each individual and that relationship. So you figured out that wasn’t a key to your intimate connection. 

Hazel: 

Yeah, so it made it easy then to keep it separate. I could do that (impact play) with other people and he could support me in that way. 

Then we both realized we have gangbang fantasies. It helps that those are similar. 

Vanessa: 

You want to be gangbanged or you want to gangbang someone else? 

Hazel: 

Yes. Both and. So it helps that we have some kinks that are very similar. It also helps that when he talks about wanting to explore gangbangs and do things like that, I naturally have a tendency to think that it’s hot. We have some understanding in that realm. 

Vanessa: 

Yeah, I imagine it would be a lot more difficult if you had very different ideas, or if it was hard to understand the kink that he wanted to explore, if you were just accepting it, if it didn’t turn you on. 

Hazel: 

Yeah. It’s very helpful that he has a kink that turns me on. 

Vanessa: 

I want to end with any advice you have for people out there who are in romantic relationships and deeply love their partner who want to support them and have a healthy relationship, and also want to put their bodies out on the internet or go fuck a bunch of people for millions of people to see?

Hazel: 

Oh man, I would say, it helps to approach it with some humor. And be open. Find people you trust. It’s good to work with people you trust. 

Vanessa: 

So, don’t just go on sexyjobs.com and respond to the first ad that requests you and says they’re going to pay $20,000? 

Hazel: 

That may be challenging for your relationship, yeah. 

And I would say lean into some of those relationship fears and know that on the other side of that fear there can be joy. You find joy on the other side if you just work through it. 

Vanessa: 

Can we show viewers your shirt. For podcast listeners who can’t see, it says, “I live a Fuck Yes life.” This is just coincidental you wore this today, but I think it’s very clearly embodying the way you have described approaching your relationship. Like three months into the relationship, and you’re trying out this wild crazy adventure together, totally nervous about it, but saying fuck yes, this is life. 

Thank you so much Hazel Havor and “Hazel Havor’s Husband”. And thank you all for joining us in this silly, vulnerable, beautiful conversation. 

This has been another edition of A Sluts Guide to Happiness. I’m your host, Vanessa Cliff. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple and Spotify, as well as on cliffmediaproductions.com. 

I encourage you to like and share this podcast. Please support us, get the word out there and stay tuned for more deep dives into beautiful, fun, messy waters. If you’re over the age of 18, you can check out our video content, including his hot gangbang and a lot of her hot flogging on our website at cliffmediaproductions.com

And most of all, I invite you to join us in the pleasure of being awkwardly human, naked and without pretense. Let’s get free.