Welcome back to A Slut’s Guide to Happiness, where your body is perfectly imperfect and it is safe to be as sexual, kinky, queer, or slutty as you want. 

Today I am super excited for our very first panel of two experts. We have Hannah and Pixie, who are both leaders with Cliff Media and do lots of other amazing things in their lives.

They have done a lot of community organizing around sex work and supporting sex workers to feel empowered to be their authentic selves. I really admire the way that each of them hold themselves in the world, expressing this is who I am, and I just love who I am. 

That emanates from their being. The way that they walk in the world helps to create safe spaces for other people.

So I’m excited today that we get to talk about a subject that’s often stigmatized. We’re going to be talking about different aspects of sex work. There are so many negative narratives about sex, like people get into it because they’re traumatized or financially desperate. There are assumptions that if you’re in sex work, you need to be rescued.

We’re going to step beyond reactively challenging these narratives. We’re primarily speaking to listeners of people who do sex work or even people who already are on the same page and understand that sex work is a real job. We’re going to be talking about the nitty gritty of it, like many different forms of sex work. 

There’s not just one reason that people get into sex work. And once people are in it, there’s not one type of experience that people have. It’s this huge genre of employment. 

I’m excited to get some different perspectives from both of y’all. I want to get started with just a broad question. Why do you like this work? Why did you start doing this? 

Pixie: 

Sure, it’s totally cliche. Originally, I started this when I was quite young, and I could maybe give you a big spiel about being raised as a business woman. But the bottom line is, I was under 21 and needed money, and it was a really quick and easy way. Back then, we didn’t have the terminology of cis men, but back then I became a daddy’s girl or an escort.

It was fun for me. I got lots of perks and I didn’t see what was wrong with it. Now I have this awesome opportunity to choose what I want to do as a sex worker. 

As we were talking earlier before we rolled the cameras. What is sex work? Well, that depends on who you ask. Is sex work hiring me to be your girlfriend for a night? Maybe. Is sex work hiring me to listen to you about your sexual frustrations or inadequacies that you feel? For me, sex work is so many different things. 

Vanessa: 

Hannah, how about you? 

Hannah: 

Well, I got into it kind of by accident. I don’t know that that’s tremendously unique, but people do fall into it and discover it as a thing that they maybe they hadn’t really considered before. It was an emergency. I was road tripping and ran out of money. I needed gas and there was nothing else that we could do, so I proposed, I’ve got a thing I might want to try. 

Then as time passed, I realized that getting into sex work was feeding a need of my own. Because when it comes to sex work in general, certainly in the United States, nobody has a problem with the word “work”. Under capitalism, it’s our guiding principle. The part that people have a problem with is the sex part. So the work is fine, but sex is the part people take issue with. 

So it comes down to being able to redefine your relationship with the word “sex” and what it is. If you take that word “sex” and understand it equals intimate connection, you start to realize how incredibly broad sex work really is. Anytime you make an intimate connection with somebody transactional, then that’s sex work, in any way. 

For people who skirt the boundaries of that, they might say, oh no, it’s not. But it is. If you have a different perspective on the word “sex” in general. 

I enjoy it, it’s fun. It’s something I’d want to do anyway. And if someone wants to hand me a cool crisp hundred after I’m done doing it, awesome. That makes it a double win. 

That’s not everybody’s experience with it, for sure, but definitely mine. 

Vanessa: 

Yeah, I relate to the idea of falling into it. I read a novel, started it, and I was like, oh, this is fun. 

What I’m hearing from both of you is this experience of sex work as part of a broad genre of healing professions, perhaps that you are connecting with people in the same way, not to equate it, but perhaps like counseling or social work, you’re connecting with people. You just add the broad genre of sexuality, which sometimes can mean sucking dick or clit and sometimes can mean having deep conversations.

Can you describe some of the different specific things that you have done? I know that’s really a big question. What are some of the things you have done with clients? 

Pixie: 

I think that you really hit on something. We have been so conditioned to think that sex is penetrative or it has to be certain acts. One of the things that I love to do with some of the clients that I’ve worked with now is there’s a lot of people who have a penis with ED, erectile dysfunction.

We were recently actually on a set this weekend. One of the participants said this is a really challenging place for me to be because I have this dysfunction and I told him, that’s not a dysfunction. This is a delight. Let me show you.

This is the part where some people push back on the therapy end of it. Let me show you by putting my mouth and having physical contact with you. I love when a cock grows in my mouth like that. It’s going to get me off. So my excitement for that enabled them to overcome their initial fear. 

To me, that’s the goal. That’s why I do this. 

Hannah: 

I think your your there’s a really interesting subtext in what you’re saying, which is a lot of people that have thought about seeking out a sex worker, aside from the social stigma which is probably the biggest prohibitive thing in their head, there’s also this idea that if you tell me that you want to, now I’m all about it. 

Pixie: 

If you’re given me permission to let myself do something. 

Hannah: 

What I do is primarily short, 15-20 minute exchanges because that’s volume business. For me, that’s where the money is. 

But surprisingly enough, and it’s almost like a theatrical cliche at this point because you’ve heard it so many times, I spend the vast majority of my time engaged with my clients just sitting there with them, talking to them, hanging out because what they what they really end up wanting at the end of it is the energy exchange, the company and the ministry of presence and somebody being there with them in that space, vulnerable.

It’s exactly the same reason why you pay a therapist. It’s a professional listener who does not have an emotional attachment to you, who won’t judge you for what you say. The freedom to be able to express in that theater is an overwhelmingly powerful thing for them. It ends up being way more the focus, once the sex part is done, which typically ends quickly. 

The rest of the time, it’s like, you paid for an hour and that took seven minutes, what do you want to do with the other 53 minutes. You hang out and you just talk. That’s where the really powerful stuff comes up. 

Pixie: 

I relate to my clients in such a different way because I’m based on volume. I prefer to have a deeper relationship with maybe five people who are my clients or however you want to identify yourself because I live for being able to ask, “how are you doing in your life?” 

You are now in this most vulnerable position and there is something about bringing someone to orgasm. And most of my work has been with males. But I’ve also experienced it with females too, when the surges are happening schematically in your body. 

I think that’s the other thing that we haven’t touched on yet with the sex work is your hips hold a lot of trauma, and a lot of people have hip trauma from sexual abuse or whatever, and this can be a way to unlock an even deeper level.

Vanessa: 

Yeah, talking about how you hold your energy, your second brain, down in your gut. 

The other thing I think I’m hearing is that sex work is responding to not only to the groups of people who are often left out of easy access to sex, but and also right now, a lot of people are talking about this epidemic of loneliness in this technological era for all different kinds of reasons. There are a lot more people who are missing intimate connections, so sex becomes a bridge to that. 

I remember hearing a friend who was talking about how they hired a sex worker and in that particular exchange, they got off, but they didn’t have an emotional connection, that felt missing. I think that there are vastly different experiences that sex workers have. It sounds like you’re describing really coming from an ethos of connection with clients and building that intimate connection. 

I want to take a moment and have a little silly sharing. If you if you like, can you tell me about some of the unusual or funny or or unexpected experiences you had in your sex work career?

Hannah: 

All right, the list is long. Because of the typically clandestine nature of what sex workers do, so much of it almost feels clumsy, especially in the infancy, when you’re just starting to do this work. You yourself are overcoming some of those obstacles, those emotional and psychological and cultural obstacles to really being able to embrace what you do. Everything is just a comedy. Like, you’re in my hair. Or, did you fart?

You have to have such a potent, robust and resilient sense of humor through all of it. Because, first of all, sex is hilarious. 

It is hilarious. Gross. And, you know, excuse me, pause camera, if you’re doing it on camera, you have a little something right there before I go back down. We’ll fix it. 

As far as zany, crazy things that have happened. I’ve done a lot of crazy things. And my introduction into sex work was, was, blowing people at a truck stop. Halfway through, of all places, the state of Indiana. We were out of money and we’re all friends standing around. Everybody’s out of smokes, the cars are empty on gas. We’re all hungry, and I’m going to go ahead and save the day. 

I felt like that wasn’t that wasn’t so bad. What did that take? Three minutes?

It’s really more so than just kind of crazy funny as just a lot of really potent experiences of that moment when somebody, a client, is so pent up in their life and so restricted and so confined, and they’ve been imagining and thinking and fantasizing and wanting and needing for so many years. 

This moment comes and they’re so nervous and they’re stumbling over their words. 

And I’ve had people running to the bathroom so they could go be sick because they’re just overwhelmed. And that moment when you see them punch through that boundary, even a pinprick of light that you see through that barrier is almost payment enough. I still want the cash.

Pixie: 

We still have bills to pay. 

Vanessa: 

We all live under capitalism. 

Pixie: 

I’m leaning into that more because I really would do this. My partner and I have talked about this, what is it to be a sex worker, and what does it mean within the relationship of being in a relationship with a sex partner? And that can be a whole podcast and a half on it’s own.

Vanessa: 

Let’s take a moment to talk about that. For me, when I first started, I had a partner who felt a little insecure about my sex work. In this work, you’re interacting with lots of different people. Some are really insecure and other people have a lot of bravado about their sexuality or confidence.

So that was challenging at first. And now that I’m much more self-accepting, this is me and this is who I am, I have a lot of pride in my work, I have pursued partners who are supportive and value my work. 

I know that I’ve heard conversations from some sex workers trying to decide whether to disclose their work and how that will impact their dating life. So how has it been for you? How do you disclose this either to people that you’re partners with or people you’re having sex with in your personal life?

Hannah: 

I’ve always enjoyed the luxury in my life of being the kind of person who just never worries about what I’m going to say next. So when I meet people, especially people that I have interest in, especially romantic interest in, I’m all 52 cards right away. First meeting. I don’t want to talk about the weather or sports or any of that stuff. I’m going to tell you everything that you can expect. I’ve not been very successful with that approach, but you just come out and say it. 

Pixie: 

As someone with the opposite approach, I don’t think my extreme approach has worked well either. 

Hannah: 

Grass is always greener with these actions, right? I approach it by just saying it honestly. Because it’s hard enough to juggle this career. 

It is tremendously complicated and a lot of work. That’s what a lot of people don’t understand about sex work is it’s it’s not easy at all, it is absolutely work. You have clients that have appointments and you have to go meet them at 2:00 in a hotel downtown. Whether you have the spoons or not, you have an appointment today. Sometimes it feels like it’s just work. 

When I meet people, I meet people that I’m not even dating, I bump into them in a 711, by the way, I fuck people for money. And then I go to get in my car. 

Pixie: 

When do I hand out a business card, and when do I not? 

Hannah: 

But the only way you can do it, you have to be completely upfront with it. Just having open communication and conversations with your partner about it and deciding whether the two of you are aligned. 

That’s one of the beautiful things about OnlyFans, is it created – all the capitalist stuff aside about OnlyFans and the problems that people have with it – it created a soft intro for a lot of people into this world, I can post pictures of me in bikinis or whatever and it isn’t pushing you over that edge yet. And then you can slowly start pushing your horizon further out. 

Pixie: 

Or maybe you’ve decided that all I want to do is just be a content creator online. I think that for a lot of people that I know who identify as female sex workers and only service cis men, they are like, this was a good introduction into this and I only want to do this now.

That’s not my personal journey because when I started, the internet didn’t exist yet. It’s been a while. So I’m actually navigating how to use the internet for sex work. I’m learning how do I keep an authentic relationship when someone thinks that they have a relationship with me via OnlyFans. 

Hannah:

That is one of the most important parts about making it profitable, is the suspension of disbelief that they have a relationship with you. 

In reference to the question you asked, I’ve had plenty of first dates and not a second one that have resulted from that particular piece of information. Almost all of it has to do with supposition that is based around these generalizations and ideas about what sex work is, and that it’s inherently dirty or dangerous. 

Then there is the sort of archaic framework of general monogamy, that still has a very tight grip on relationships. And in countries like the United States, where there’s this possessiveness, but they don’t want you all to themselves. 

So those are the first two points. I’m never, ever going to be in a monogamous relationship again for as long as I live. Just so you know. Yeah. Please, go ahead and order an extra piece of pie. That’s fine. And I do sex work. Those two things right off the bat. 

Those are the big ones, everything else is like, I might squeeze the toothpaste in the middle every once in a while. But the big ones are out of the way. So if you can handle that, we’re off to the races. I can’t imagine doing it any other way. 

Vanessa: 

Another thing that I hear that feels so true to me is the magnitude of work involved in sex work. There are some times where I wish that the work could just be showing up, fucking some fun people who are respectful and kind, we have a great time, and then I go home with a lot of money. Fuck yes on those days. But so much more time is spent on the paperwork and marketing online or going to the places where you hustle. 

I’d love to hear more about this behind-the-scenes work. How do you find clients? How do you network with them? Like how do you deal with the emotional labor of this work? 

Pixie: 

Oh my gosh, it’s so funny that you ask me that, because we just came from a shoot this weekend. And, one of the things it’s like, wow, I really did a lot of physical work. I really did a lot, like hiking up and down the hill and different things like that to make this work.

And I was like, I made sure that a lot of other people came, but I didn’t orgasm. I did not orgasm. And I was like, it was fun because I was with friends. But actually, you know, the sex part really wasn’t that fun. 

Hannah: 

You forget to serve yourself. 

Pixie: 

I forgot to serve myself. 

Hannah: 

Yeah that happens a lot. 

Pixie: 

When I was talking to my partner about that today, I was like, this is why sex work is work. I love introducing new people to kink. I love introducing new people to try this, let me help you if I can be that bridge now. 

If you pay me, I am willing to do slightly different things. Money does make it slightly different. I can be a little bit more adventurous. I will do things for money that I don’t like to do in my personal life. And I don’t think a lot of people talk about that. 

Hannah: 

That’s part of the work. That’s showing up to your appointment. That’s like, yeah, you can spit on me. That’s fine. Even though I personally find that to be fairly repugnant. But if they’re wadding up an extra 50, I’m down.

Pixie: 

If you want me to “hawk tuah” you, I guess, I will. 

Hannah: 

Oh man, did you just pop culture? And here you were just talking about yourself as an internet novice. Get out of here. 

Pixie: 

I am proud of that. She is capitalizing on her thing. If you believe all the rumors. She fell into it literally. And now she’s been able to buy a house for her grandma who raised her. And I’m like, fuck yeah.

Hannah: 

It’s interesting you should bring that up. Because the “hawk tuah” girl: sex work. Sex work. 

Pixie: 

Absolutely. 

Hannah: 

That’s what sold it. That’s what sold the entire idea of it. And that’s where the profitability came from. 

The work portion of it is, frankly, exhausting. It’s, you know, organizing and keeping a calendar with clients and stuff. It’s not that difficult in the sense that the appointments are typically fairly short. 

But it’s a lot harder to find clients than people think it is. 

Pixie: 

It is so much harder. 

Hannah: 

You don’t just stick your thumb out the window and have people lined up at the door to pay your rent. You have to hustle and move, and then you have to navigate the legal hellscape of the verbiage that you have to use, protecting client confidentiality, all of those things.

Then after that, all of the things you do for your own personal safety and for your client’s safety, as far as STI protection, contraceptives, things like that, anything that you need, all of those need to be prepared. Then there’s all of the personal grooming and hygiene and everything else, especially because my body type is a niche market. It’s a big fetish, which I chose to capitalize on in my sex work. Whereas there’s very few people, especially in the cis hetero world who will admit it loudly to themselves, my FetLife inbox begs to differ. 

So, there’s a lot of that work. It’s tireless and you have to do it anyway. I think it’s really important  for for people who are trying to explore the idea of sex work, not necessarily for themselves, like something they’ll do someday, but anybody who’s doing the work to evolve how they think about it. 

You have to go further than just saying it’s a job. Take all of the things that you do for your job, but you go to the office or whatever it is that you do, extrapolate that out to sex work because it’s exactly the same damn thing. You have to get up to your alarm clock or whatever. You have to get ready. You have to go to work. You have to do the work. You have to budget your finances. 

Pixie: 

When you say “get ready” for sex work, that’s really key. People do not realize. They have this notion that we’re dirty, nasty, whatever it is. I’m telling you, sex workers that I know are the cleanest, most fastidious people I have ever met.

Hannah: 

You have to be. It’s job security.

Pixie: 

It is. I can’t give something to one of my clients or friends that I’m with. That would be, on a personal level, devastating. And I’m not going to do that. 

Hannah: 

There comes a level of professionalism, too. But the primary difference is that when I throw on my apron and strap my shoes on at 3:30 in the morning to go work at my job at a grocery store, I’m not that excited about it, right? When I’m putting on my lashes to go fuck somebody for $200 – $300 or whatever. I’m pretty jazzed.

The difference between my job and a lot of other jobs is that I love my job, I love what I’m doing. And I’ve learned to be good at it and at the nuts and bolts of making it work and scheduling it and everything. I just never lose sight of the fact that it is hard, complex work. 

Vanessa: 

Yeah. I love the contrast in what you’re talking about, between sex work in general and sensationalized stories like the “hawk tua” girl. That kind of story has a big impact on popular imagination. 

People think you post your body on OnlyFans for a minute, then you get $1 million. Or like you said, you stick your thumb out and there are a bunch of people lining up for you. Cases like that are a tiny percent of the population. In reality, so much of sex work is the hustle. 

I was thinking about getting ready for sex work – I have never spent so many hours doing enemas before sex work. 

Hannah: 

I never even bought an enema from a store until I got into sex work. It never occurred to me. And now my bidet is my best friend. 

Vanessa: 

So I’d love to go into a couple of the specifics. There’s the sex work at gas stations, sex work online, sex work in front of hotels or on the streets. And those involve different relationships to policing and legality, different relationships to safety. And they’re different communities and sex workers. 

I’d love to hear about these. Can we talk first about gas stations, you both have experiences doing gas station sex work. How did you approach it? What actually goes on there?

Hannah: 

Yeah I’m a socially awkward and anxious person typically, especially around people I don’t know. So it was a really big step for me. I don’t want to make assumptions about other people’s perspectives on it, but the sex work, when I’m in that space, it’s theatrical, it’s a character, and I’m adopting that character because I have to switch into that in order to be able to do things.

When you do “lot work” (at gas stations) or street work, which I’ve done plenty of, you have to be very verbally forward, very pushy. In order to be successful at it, you have to be able to ask questions without asking them and making them dirty but shiny at the same time, because you never know who you are asking and you can get arrested for soliciting. 

So, there’s all those nerves that go into making that very first approach. And in the beginning, I was fortunate that I was able to communicate my intent almost exclusively non-verbally. It was a skill. It was about finding the right place to be, to set up and then making that eye contact with somebody and more or less with your facial expressions or whatever, insinuate what you’re offering. Then when you get into a private setting, they ask where you charge or whatever. 

Any public theater work like that is I don’t do it much anymore because it’s terrifying. Not only because there’s bigger things to navigate and there’s the potential of getting arrested. Then you would carry the stigma of being a sex offender around for the entire rest of your life. But also it’s dangerous.

Vanessa: 

It is physically dangerous from people, not even police, just people who are interested. 

Pixie: 

You’re going to take essentially a stranger. I did gas station work off the cuff, and I’ve done it of late. I was out of it for six months taking care of some personal stuff. I didn’t have clients coming up. So I went back to lot work and it’s scary going into a confined space with someone that you essentially don’t know. I know if I scream loud enough, hopefully somebody will respond to it. And I go in armed. 

But getting back to that, for me personally, I’m not anxious to do a lot of that work right now because I can’t physically defend myself. It’s been interesting navigating that. I used to go in and I’d just have a knife in my boots just in case. We were talking earlier about how delicate nutsacks are. 

Vanessa: 

Two things that are coming up. I’m hearing the experiences of fear of violence and actual violence. I know the rates of violent assault, physical and sexual violence against sex workers is really high, I think higher among people working lots or the street than people making connections online. And that distinction often follows lines of class, race and age.  

I was also relating to you about having a persona. A lot of times when I’m doing sex work, my persona is as a naive, sweet girl.

So we’ve talked about work at gas stations. I want to talk about times you’ve found clients online. How do you find people online? How does it differ emotionally and in the ways that you approach it? And how have you navigated transitioning from online to you meeting up with them?

Pixie: 

I find them in the weirdest of ways, actually. I will find somebody at a grocery store. I get mostly through word-of-mouth. People know what I do, and so they’ll pass it on that way. I don’t have a big online presence. 

Part of that is me, I’m not as good on social networks. But I want to be because you can weed out a lot of the danger depending on how people respond to you. 

If I come back and say, I’d love to meet with you, can you give me your current STI results? And they go, what’s an STI result? How do I do that? This is a learning opportunity for me. And I take that learning opportunity, but I don’t get paid for that learning opportunity. 

Hannah: 

I think the one of the hardest parts about online is making an accurate assessment of what your time is worth and how much time you’re actually investing in what you’re doing.

It’s so much more time-consuming than I realized it would be in the beginning. I started on OnlyFans. I thought, why not, I already had a FetLife and plenty of traffic there. I started funneling people that way and I said, I’m not going to charge a subscription, but tip me. I would appreciate it if you would throw some tips. 

The moment you put any kind of a paywall in front of people, with the accessibility of so much free content on the internet now, you go from 2,000 people following your page to 20. It ended up being pretty lucrative for a while, but it was a constant hustle, posting new pictures. 

You have to be in their face every day posting something new, because in the internet world, it’s like radio silence. At the moment the radio goes silent, people change to another station. The moment you stop posting every day, every single person that follows you completely forgot you existed, until they open up their feed and there you are again. 

That’s one of the real social tragedies of social media in general is that the people that you, you strive to have connections with, or wish you did have connections with, fall away into this cobweb attic in your brain if they’re not posting all the time. 

So staying relevant in this online world is difficult to do, especially in such a saturated market, especially on OnlyFans. I don’t want to discourage people from starting one, because the reality is that about 4% of the profiles on OnlyFans are active content creators. Most of them are derelict or dead profiles, and the rest of them are the lurker that people are watching and buying content. So, you absolutely can make money on OnlyFans, but it is a lot of work.

I think people have the misconception, if I just take a few pictures of my junk and throw it up on OnlyFans, the money is going to come rolling in. And it isn’t. Like any other achievement, if you want to excel, you have to set yourself above and outside of everything else and find your niche.

It proved to be too much work for me. I couldn’t maintain the relevance. I abandoned it after a while because I just wasn’t pushy enough to get people to pay for it. 

Then they passed those laws and Backpage and things like that went away, which was a devastating blow to so many people who do sex work, because it was one of the few places that you could advertise safely online. 

On top of everything else, a lot of the other places, like there used to be a place, a site called RubRatings, which has been completely infiltrated by AI bots that post a million ads. So if you’re a real person, you’re buried in a sea of identical ads and nobody’s going to even go. 

Pixie: 

Yeah, so much of it is about creating a niche. How do we stand out? You have chosen to capitalize on it, which I admire. I have a different persona just based on ways that my body physically is.

I’m covered in scars. I’ve had a life well lived. In sex work that can or cannot be a turn on. If I’m going for the cute little girl next door, which is typically what I do because that’s how I’m typed, they don’t like to see all the scars. But on the other hand, somebody might really like them.

it’s so vast on what you’re going to find and what you’re going to do. 

Vanessa: 

There’s so many different ways of navigating this, especially depending on what you’re comfortable with, what your body is. 

One of the things that you’re touching on in terms of like Backpage being shut down or the difficulties with having to navigate language, is that the criminalization, the the efforts to shut down “sex trafficking” also includes efforts to shut down sex work. Consensual sex work is entirely different than labor trafficking, but they get conflated politically.

It results in things like Backpage being shut down because of criminalization of the ways that people are posting. There are now some pages, like Tryst or boards where people post, that are more explicit about transitioning from online to in-person sex work. 

I’ve heard you describe some of your experiences of having to very carefully navigate, maybe similarly to in-person at the gas station, that language, to make sure that you’re not shutting down your account or getting criminalized, while still cultivating those in-person clients. How do you navigate that, if you feel comfortable sharing? 

Hannah: 

There’s pretty much a template for that now because people have been doing it for so long. The verbiage that you use when you’re communicating directly with somebody who has shown interest is really just copy-paste at this point. It’s not very complicated. 

To avoid the laws and the way they are written about prosecution for sex work, you just can’t make any direct allusions to insinuations of or offers of, of any kind of sexual activity in exchange for any kind of gain. It’s easy to do. 

I send a whole paragraph, almost like a legal disclaimer when somebody says, I like to meet you. I send them a whole thing that says, okay, we are agreeing to meet with each other, and understand that this is merely an exchange of time – I don’t remember the exact verbiage – but we are spending time together as two consenting adults, and you are offering to take me out on a date because you have a romantic interest in me. I accept your date. 

Then after that, it’s pretty much what two consenting adults choose to do after they’ve had a wonderful day together. That’s their business.

I’ve also learned over time that the part in the transaction where the money exchange happens is also made fairly evident. And if there’s hesitation there, leave immediately. Just get out. If you get to the end of whatever the conversation over coffee or whatever, you know, ruse you’ve put in front of it, and you’re just making that awkward eye contact and silence, just like waiting for your cash and it doesn’t, come back. 

I’ve done that 100 times, just turned tail and left, not that I thought they necessarily were a cop or whatever, it’s possible, but there is another kind of fear. I’ve been extremely fortunate in that I’ve never had any kind of physical assault on my person through the 21 years that I’ve been in direct-contact sex work. It’s advantageous to be 6 feet tall. 

But I’ve had lots and lots of people skip out without paying. And I consider that to be, I mean, it’s obvious, it’s criminal. It’s theft. It’s it’s theft of goods without paying for it. That happens a lot. There’s nothing you can do about it. Navigating that can be tough too. 

Vanessa: 

Does that feel like assault to you? 

Hannah: 

I don’t know, that’s a difficult question for me to answer because I’m still hung up on the varying degrees of assault. It’s the whole idea, like if you’re laying in a hospital bed with a broken finger next to somebody in a full body cast, it doesn’t make your finger hurt any less. But I’m still in that place, especially from 40 years of male acculturation in this country, too, so my coping is to say, “I’m fine. It’s fine.”

But basically, yeah, it is a form of it I suppose, for sure, emotionally. And there’s no recourse. You pretty much just have to leave. You can’t go after them. You can’t get physical with them because now you’re committing a crime of assault. 

You’re already committing a crime, based on our country’s laws, by doing direct-contact sex work. You can’t go to somebody and say, “Hey, I was just banging that dude for cash and you didn’t pay me.”

Pixie: 

It’s a luxury that I get off doing more in-call work and not on the fly. I have a whole ritual, because I can be in-call work now.

It can be dangerous because they’re coming to what they may or may not realize is my home, where I live. So that opens up a different safety thing. 

One of my procedures is money up front. Then I put it away because I’ve had people, when in the moment or whatever you think blindly, this client has my back, and then they’ll steal the money right back. So I have a whole ritual that I go through. 

Hannah: 

That’s something the internet has made much easier. It’s pay up front. I want it to hit my CashApp before you knock on my door. And then now you’ve paid me, so now everything is cool. We go about our business. All that exchange happened, and you get paid first. 

That didn’t used to be the case. You could not do that in the mid 90s, even all the way up into the early 2000 when it just wasn’t a reliable way to quickly wire money until smartphones really became a thing. There were cash transactions. There was always a cash transaction because nobody wants to write a check and put their name on the bottom right. 

Pixie: 

Some of these new apps have made it really good, like I do now charge a deposit for people that I if they’re not a returning client or whatever. 

Because like we’ve been talking about, I spent an hour washing my hair and doing my makeup and making sure, since I’m doing in-call, that my home was a presentable space, because there can be so much criticism. 

Some of it is self-criticism. To guys, really, you’re coming to fuck me, do you really care if my floors are vacuum? Like you’re coming over for me to suck your cock. But me, as a person living in this world and being a real person, I want my friends back, I want things to be presentable. It’s all about that experience for you. 

So I don’t mind charging a deposit. If you cancel on me and you don’t get it back, it’s also about professionalism too. That’s good professionalism. In any job you keep your professional space clean and well organized and inviting and welcoming. Another way that it’s exactly like any other job that you do.

Vanessa: 

Professionalism is important. I think your conversation about the apps really speaks to this concern that I’ve heard other sex workers express around, for example, Venmo or PayPal kicking you off if you have been identified as using it for NSFW purposes. And so having safe spaces like CashApp that sex workers are more likely to use is super important. 

I really hope that that stays a safe resource because not having diverse forms of payment can be connected to problems like what some people may experience as assault, or at least not being paid, theft of labor. 

Another area of safety I’d love to hear about is how you navigate your sexual health in these interactions.

Hannah: 

It’s an insistence upon all of the different precautions that you would take for safe sex. And then, rigid testing schedules, you test yourself for your prior testing. If I test myself and then everything is done, agreed ahead of time, like condoms will be used regardless if I’m making any contact whatsoever with my hand, my mouth, any part of my body with your penis, you’re going to have a condom on it.

That actually turns a lot of people away, too. They’re like, “Even for oral”. I say, “yes, even for oral.” I’m not having it. This is my job. If I worked in a warehouse for my job, I would wear my back belt. I would wear my gloves and my safety glasses every day, no matter what. Condoms are my safety glasses. 

It’s really difficult because you have to hold those boundaries regardless of what your current need is. Like rent is due in two days or whatever, I’m short money, and the client is saying they don’t want to wear a condom and now you’re in this predicament, like, what do I do? I’ve been in that position many, many times, and I’ve compromised my rules many times, in order to meet my desperate need for money at the time. 

It’s not all been fun and games. Sometimes it’s been barely scraping by. Absolute desperation, doing lots of things I would not repeat and certainly wouldn’t do for free. Being able to hold the line and hold those boundaries is tough. 

Pixie: 

I have a very different experience. But the bottom line is the same, being able to hold my boundaries. So with all of the surgeries that I have had and recent setbacks, I do say, “Even for a blowjob, I need you to wear a condom.” I’ve gotten really clear cut about. 

Yeah, okay. I know you’ve only fucked your wife, blah blah blah. I still need you to wear a condom. Just being really upfront about that. And we were talking earlier about like, I get into the role, I’ve got the script.

I also come at it from just a very different perspective of, I’m doing this a lot for fun. I’ve had other careers and I’ve been so fortunate, how can I still meet the client’s needs, get paid, and like you were saying, get my needs met, too. Like how safe do I feel? Do I just blank out of this client right from the get go? All of those things. You really have to be sharp.

Hannah: 

There’s no there’s no OSHA for sex work. So you end up navigating based on your own comfort/ I’m going to walk into a situation and feel safe in this place where somebody else, who is pursuing has the exact same career or exact same intent that I do, and walking in that space, they may not feel safe for whatever the reasons. 

Anxiety-driven hypervigilance is a really useful tool. As far as my medical health is concerned, I mean, truth be told, if you want to make a living doing it, all you can do is watch out for yourself. That’s it. 

You can insist that the people that you meet with have current STI results. But you won’t make enough to survive if you do that. In my experience anyway. It turns away 95% of the people because they don’t want to get tested. 

The vast majority of the clients that I see are people in committed relationships or keeping secrets from their spouse. How do you justify going in and having your STI panels run, when the only person who’s supposed to have been having sex for the past 30 years is your wife. So they’re not going to do that.

So all I can do is say, okay, these are the ways in which my job is dangerous. This is what’s coming at me. What’s my bullet proof vest for this? How do I protect myself? And I’m just assuming that every person that I meet with is every possible danger that I could face. And so I’m going to protect myself against all of those as best I can. 

Incidentally, trying to stay sexy and in character, right? Very complex and hard to hard to navigate. 

Pixie: 

I suspect that if I didn’t have my background on health care, it would be so much harder. I understand risk management. I can minimize the risks and the safety for myself and it can change over time.

For example, right now no one except for my partner is penetrating me vaginally because I can’t risk getting an infection right now for my overall health. That also has been turning off a lot of the clients. 

Vanessa: 

I think about when I was first getting started, I was really struggling hard to find gigs. I found this guy who I felt had a lot of red flags, but I went anyway because I was desperate. I ended up getting in his car, and then he started doing really creepy things. 

I felt really unsafe. I told him I wanted to leave. He got angry that I was leaving. I had to run out. And that was the moment where I decided, I love this work and I need to learn how to trust my gut.

I feel like having those negative experiences and learning from them is part of the process, especially in an industry where there’s no OSHA, there’s no regulation, there’s very little institutionalized or structured support for sex workers to connect and learn from each other unless they’re intentionally reaching out. In terms of sexual health, I am so glad for PrEP because it allows me to take care of myself a little bit more even when clients aren’t taking care of me. 

Hannah: 

I think you said something really, really important right there, too, by the way, is that intuition is everything. 

One thing that that has been honed through a razor sharp edge over the time of many years of doing sex work is, a lot of people have a difficult time to struggle to listen to their gut. You do this work for long enough, eventually it becomes automatic. You listen to your gut immediately, and you don’t question it for a second. 

Even with somebody wagging a $100 bill in your face, but something about just wigs me out and you bail. And you get good at it. And the applications into your outside sex work life are pretty awesome too, developing that skill set. 

Trusting your gut is everything in a business that has no built in protections for you. 

Pixie: 

I’m so blessed every day to be the child of first responders. My dad used to investigate sex crimes. So a lot of things I learned adjacently, not firsthand experience.

I’m so grateful for that knowledge because the minute something feels off, like I’ll notice where cars are parked, I notice how they sit if we’re meeting at a bar, all of those little things that I wouldn’t necessarily have thought of, but definitely comes to play of being a sex worker or just a person out in the world.

I need to keep myself safe. I’m not six feet tall. I will surprise you, so don’t underestimate me. I sure know that.

Vanessa: 

I love this idea. And I’ve really experienced this myself. In the process of sex work, where you are not told it’s okay to do it, there’s no one out there protecting your safety unless you’re seeking out other sex workers to be on your side, you are have to trust yourself and set your own boundaries.

I have also experienced that growth applies to other aspects of life. Sex work has been a teacher for me in other parts of my life. I remember we talked about this a little bit on the previous podcast. Is that something that you’ve experienced as well? How has that played out for the two of you in your lives?

Hannah: 

I do want to further touch base on what you just said. If you do sex work or want to do sex work, one of the greatest ways to protect yourself is exactly what you said – make friends with, connect with, and build community with other sex workers. 

Create a network of people that know. Have safety call people that you can tell, I’m going to meet a client. This is where we are. This is the time that we’re meeting. This is the time we should be finished. If you don’t hear from me by this time, whatever your safety protocol is for them, having those kinds of connections is absolutely critical. It’s also helpful for vetting clients, because a lot of, of clients, this is not their first time seeking out sex work, despite what they say. 

As far as sex work being a teacher, it’s been enormous. The amount of personal growth I’ve experienced in confidence, my own sense of self, building and establishing and holding really solid boundaries, learning and embracing the incredible power of the word “no”. 

This simple phrase seems to evoke so much fear in people that they don’t want to use that word. It is such a magnificent word to use. I’ve become an expert at it, and it’s primarily because of following my intuition in sex work. And the “no”s have been to myself where I’ve been like, “no, I’m not doing that.” Even though I want the money, I’m not going to do that. 

Aside from all the kind of gritty details and the harder parts about it, the absolutely magical, meaningful, incredible connections are way more common than some kind of sleazy knock out in the back of a semi cab.

They’ve taught me so much about intimacy, about other people learning the myriad of expressions of relationships and learning how to connect with people, and help them open up and be more fully themselve. As a result, it’s also helped me be able to do that for myself. We’re providing a certain warmth and a certain connection for another person.

Oftentimes, I mean, at least as far as my experience is concerned, doing so as a surrogate for my difficulty in being able to do that for myself. I’ve learned how to do that for myself because of the character that I adopt to do that for other people.

Pixie: 

I can do this for them, but I can’t do this for myself. I’m talking about confidence building, confidence to know that I am in control enough to go meet with this stranger, maybe, and do very intimate things and be like, fuck yeah, I pushed my body to take that beating. Let’s say that was the scene, or I pushed my body to whatever.

People talk about a runner’s high. I love that sex high. Yeah, I did it. So for me, that’s one of the biggest reasons I do sex work. I’m also an adventure seeker in other parts of my life, but being able to do that and trusting my instincts like, how do I get myself out of this situation? This is not ideal. We’re in danger? We’re not in Kansas anymore. 

Vanessa: 

I relate also to that idea of deep connection that has come from it. I feel like I have learned to release judgment of other people, even when people are very different from me. 

Previously I would have judged someone, like “Oh, you’re an executive of an oil company. I’m not comfortable with you because of the impact that you have in the world.” And, now I can see that also, they are nervous or vulnerable or lonely or needing connection or having insecurities about their body. Across these differences, differences of politics or opinion or identity, we can connect as being humans. That has been a really big opportunity of growth for me personally. 

Pixie: 

One of the things that I’m working on, now that I’m coming back into the work, is still photography. There is a wide swath of people out there who love their tractors, their cars, their guns. I’m willing to display my body with their props. That’s fun, it’s a super fun niche. 

I’ve been surprised, we’ve been offering this for about three weeks now. I really thought it was going to be the pew-pews. It’s been more cars and tractors. I love the 1980s sex girl in the string bikini. Who knew that would be a niche. And how fun is that sex work. You’re paying me to be sexy on your car. I’m actually not touching your body. And you’re not touching mine. 

Vanessa: 

I actually love talking about sex work as a really broad umbrella and encouraging people who are in Cliff Media doing porn to conclude “I’m a sex worker” because I feel like it helps to destigmatize it. All these different things we’re doing, it’s part of the genre of sex work. 

I also love that you all have talked about fun because there’s so many different things that are work, that are hard, that are challenging, that are dangerous, and, there’s a lot of fun. So many rewards. 

At closing, I love to share love notes. We’ve talked about the importance of connecting with other sex workers. So, sex workers, if you’re just getting started, if you’re out there and you’re feeling lonely, we’re here for you. 

I want to leave space for if you all want to share anything to our fellow sex workers in the world

Hannah: 

For anybody who’s thinking about getting into sex work, whether you think that it is or it isn’t, I’ll be backup for somebody who’s either currently in the business or is considering getting into the business. Reaching out to me to talk about how to navigate this in the beginning. I’m old hat. I’ve been doing this a long time. 

I mostly just want to tell other sex workers and people who are thinking about getting into it to reach out and use your resources. There are lots and lots of people out there like myself. You don’t have to hide. You can be upfront and honest about what you’re doing. Somebody you can talk about it openly, and build those kinds of connections. Don’t go it alone. 

And take pride in what you’re doing. Because not everybody can. And you’re providing an essential service that humans need every bit as much as they need food and air. Even though it’s hard for places like this to admit it to itself. The connection is an absolute need for people. The need to belong is the most powerful motivator for humans, period. And what sex workers do is create, even if it’s just the illusion of, they create a temporary sense of belonging that is such a huge sauve to somebody who is struggling and lonely and frustrated or sad, or who doesn’t feel like they’re worth being touched. 

What you’re doing is, quite frankly, it’s a magical thing to do. So wipe the grime off of the entire idea and do what you do with pride.

Be safe. Take care of yourself legally. Take care of yourself physically. Reach out and make connections, but keep your head held high. Buy a t-shirt that says it on or something. Just show everybody, I love what I do and I’m not ashamed of it. Because it’s a job and you shouldn’t be. And it’s a beautiful thing to do.

Pixie: 

That’s a job that I’m very passionate about. And one of the things that we haven’t touched on really in our conversation, but we will probably in other podcasts, and I know coming up, Cliff Media is really focusing on being more inclusive. 

We haven’t talked about the need for sex workers in the disability community. How do you navigate, as a disabled sex worker, or what if your clients are in some way having a harder time? I’d love to dive more into that at another time, because that is one of the things that I love doing. Everyone needs that connection, and people who are wheelchair bound or have some sort of physical thing, it really makes a difference for them to be touched in a way that is loving and building connection and sexual. 

Vanessa: 

But yes, I really think that we have touched on belonging and connection being at the heart of sex work. It’s not just about genitals. Genitals that can be a piece of it, but it’s not always. There are many different pieces of sex. Work happens in lots of different places and ways, and there is something really healing about the opportunity to connect with another person, to have that person see that you are worthy.

So sex workers, we see you. We’re here for you. Reach out. 

Other folks who are learning about sex work, may I encourage you in your journey to understand that just like any occupation, just like any other population, there is a wide diversity of ways that people experience it and navigate it. And lots of people who enjoy the hell out of this work. 

Thank you so much for joining us today, sharing your experiences and perspectives. 

Vewers, thanks for joining us. 

This has been another edition of A Slut’s Guide to Happiness with your host Vanessa Cliff and our amazing community leaders, Hannah and Pixie. 

You can find us wherever you get your podcasts on Apple, Spotify or Cliff Media’s website, cliffmediaproductions.com. 

Please help us out by liking and sharing this podcast, and stay tuned for more deep dives in the beautiful, messy waters.

If you are over the age of 18, you can see some of our videos, including these two sexy folks on cliffmediaproductions.com. 

And most of all, I invite you to join us in the pleasure of being awkwardly human, naked and without pretense. 

Let’s get free.