Welcome to A Slut’s Guide to Happiness, where your body is perfectly imperfect and it’s safe to be as slutty, kinky, queer, or sexual as you want. 

Today we’re going to be talking with our Chief Visual Officer of Clif Media, Orion Pax. You have already heard about his history with masturbation and anonymous gay relationships.

You get to know him at a personal level, which is a beautiful thing here. His super powers, as you all have already begun to gather, is that he has a wealth of diverse creative sexual interests and exploration. That’s a superpower I feel like is not often acknowledged for the beauty that it brings. 

Fortunately, we get to experience and share some of his superpowers through his work with Cliff Media. 

We’ve also heard about some of his other private explorations, but today we’re going to be talking about his particular love of slutty women. This is a slightly different part of his sexual romantic personal life than anonymous gay sex, and the authenticity of each part of this story comes with being pansexual and being sexually adventurous.

We’re talking about women who have sex with lots of other partners. And one of the ways that we know that this isn’t just Orion’s thing or a small segment of the population, but is actually really common, is there’s a huge mainstream genre of straight porn, all about hot wives. 

A “hotwife” refers to a married woman, in this particular normative mainstream genre. She’s married openly and with the consent of her husband, or even the active interest of her husband, has many sexual relationships outside her marriage. That is a genre of porn that’s watched by men and women. 

Of course, we don’t have to think about this only in the context of marriage, there are lots of women who aren’t married or don’t want to get married who are also slutty. But one thing I find particularly interesting about hotwife porn and swinger fantasy is that it’s flirting with rejection of pedestalizing monogamy and slut-shaming.

It taps into a broadly felt desire for something freer by many people, even people who live within the typical norms of monogamy and expectations around marriage. There’s something about a woman in a gangbang, or a woman who has lots of partners, or a woman who goes out at night and does sexual things with other people that’s desirable for a lot of people. 

Orion is one of those people, and he’s going to talk with about some of his relationships with slutty women, why he loves it, the ups and downs, and some of the things he has learned about finding slutty women that are compatible with you. 

Orion, thank you so much for joining us again. Can you tell us about one of the times that you realized that you love dating and being in relationships with slutty women? 

Orion: 

I sure can. First of all, thank you for having me back. When I think about one of the first times I realized this, I think about a time I was in high school. I had heard through the grapevine that this one girl was slutty.

Vanessa: 

So in this case, in the high school rumor mill, “slutty” was used as a slur?

Orion: 

Yeah. I found myself so strangely attracted to that. It’s something that I pursued with her. We ended up having sex. And to me it felt like I had just uncovered this secret. If someone is “slutty”, that’s supposed to be a bad thing, but here I was really enjoying it, even the fact that it was a bad thing, or that it was perceived as a bad thing. I was thinking, is there something wrong with me because I think this? 

Vanessa: 

Immediately attached to sex, the question, is there something wrong with me?  

Orion: 

Yeah. I think a lot of times in my relationships, especially early on, I was in these monogamous relationships and trying to convince my partner who was not open to the idea. But I was trying to slyly push them into this. “Hey, this kind of turns me on, what do you think?” 

For the first half of my adult life, a lot of my relationships were like that. I would get into these relationships that were very monogamous, but then I would try to push them into this other realm and that person wasn’t ready for it. 

It made me realize that I was choosing the wrong people. I needed to find sluts. I can’t take this monogamous woman who has no desire to do that then try to make her a slut. 

I think it was my first marriage after it ended, I stumbled across FetLife. And that’s where I felt like, holy shit, there’s people like me. It felt like I had found this secret society that I had been longing to be a part of. I think a lot of us who are sluts are always so secretive about it. Especially back then, it was always this perceived taboo. 

Vanessa: 

For listeners, what is FetLife? 

Orion: 

It’s kind of like kinky Facebook. 

Vanessa: 

Kinky Facebook, alright. So you’re meeting people on the kinky Facebook. One of the things that I thought was really beautiful in what you’re describing is that there were some women early on in your relationships who genuinely wanted monogamous relationships and you learned that trying to drag them along or suggesting an alternate path wasn’t the way they wanted to be living. So it was better for you to find people for whom your desire to see them be slutty was authentic to their desire. 

Orion: 

Yeah. Finding someone that aligned with those desires was important. It took a long time for me to find someone to align that with. Like late 30s is when I started meeting people like that. 

Vanessa: 

So take us to your late 30s, what happened then? What were you finding? 

Orion: 

Sure. In my late 30s, I find this Kik group, the messaging service. This is about 10 years ago, it feels like Kik was a little more relevant back then. Anyway, I get into this Kik hook-up group and it’s all people who just want to fuck, all just sluts. And it’s run by women. It felt like a smorgasbord of slutty women who are open to, enthusiastic about casual fucking. 

I just made my way through the whole group. And I still have some of those friendships today. Once I met other slutty people, people who have also enjoyed being a slut as well, it kind of formed this kinship. 

Vanessa: 

As you’re breaking out of the self-doubt, about why you were attracted to your slutty high school friend, then dealing with self-doubt in your monogamous relationships where you’re getting pushback from your partners, when you finally found that Kik group, you felt like you had found your people. 

Orion: 

Yeah, exactly. I think I felt the same way when I first got into the swinger community. You’re in this isolation being a slut alone, then when you find that there are other sluts, you’re like, what the fuck, man? Where have you guys been this whole time? I’ve been trying to find my tribe. 

Vanessa: 

I think one of the things that’s unique about the Kik group you’re describing is that there’s a lot more societal acceptance for guys being really slutty compared to women. 

We don’t usually use the word slutty to describe men, but we should. You’ll more often hear slutty guys being called a stud. But it’s the same behavior.

So you’re enjoying fucking a lot of women, and also all of these women are fucking a lot of guys, right? And that wasn’t just incidental information to you; that was specifically a source of attraction for you? 

Orion: 

It was, yeah. 

Vanessa: 

Okay, so what’s going on there? 

Orion: 

I think that carnal desire that a woman has, when she owns that. It’s so sexy when a woman just owns being slutty, says this is how I am. When she’s not hiding it. It’s such a turn on because it just oozes this sex appeal, this confidence. 

Vanessa: 

How does this play out in relationships? Because the Kik group you’re describing was a bunch of hook-up friends. So what does it do for you in relationships, or does it not work in relationships? Does it fall apart? 

Orion: 

I think it can work in relationships, absolutely. Some of my relationships have fallen apart because of it, but I think a lot of it was because of poor communication or boundary setting. I think when you get into poly or open relationships, it really helps to have communication and boundaries not grey areas. That’s where feelings get hurt, in those grey areas. 

Vanessa: 

I remember you told me that one time you were playing with a partner at the time. I don’t remember the details but she was doing something slutty, as you all tended to do, then you had a realization. What was that? 

Orion: 

Sure, I’ll tell you the story. So this partner who is still a very close friend of mine, she was very much into slutting and enjoyed it. We got to the point where she enjoyed when I would find men on other sites.

Way back in the day, it was Craiglist but Craiglist doesn’t do that anymore. So other sites now. It would be a regular thing. It was like, Friday night, what are we going to do? I may come over and fuck you. 

I would reach out to some guy who liked what he saw, I arranged it, friday comes around, and boom, we’re making this happen. He comes through the door, I say come on in. They like each other, start kissing each other. Next thing you know, we’re in the bedroom. Sometimes I join in, sometimes I watch. It all depends on how it goes. 

In this particular case, I was just watching. It was fucking hot.  She was talking dirty to him and talking dirty to me while she was doing it. Then he gets dressed and leaves, says “thank you, bye”. Then I get to reclaim her in a way. 

I remember that time we had such a hot session because we were both just talking about what happened. I finish and we were laying there, and she says to me, “every time you’re with me after somebody else, I feel so much closer to you”. 

It felt so beautiful to hear that because I felt it too. I thought, you’re right, there’s something about watching your partner be with somebody else then having them afterwards. I think more people should do that because it really does make me feel closer to my partner. 

There’s this desire, we’re connecting after that experience. You see her as someone else is seeing her. In a certain way, I’m watching her and proud of her. I’m seeing my partner and thinking, god she looks hot as hell, sexy as fuck. She’s doing slutty things with some guy off the internet. 

I’m a big fan of the taboo of it. The adventure. The guy doesn’t even know her name. And then he leaves and we get to reconnect. It’s just beautiful. 

Vanessa: 

It makes me think of a concept that Dan Savage talks about a lot, which is that at the beginning of a relationship, your partner is the relationship. But then after the relationship stabilizes, a lot of people are sad that their sex life is gone. They feel like there’s no adventure in their sex life anymore. 

That’s because you have to intentionally create the adventure. You’re no longer the adventure for each other. 

But you and this partner you’re describing were really smart about creating the adventure. You’re creating arousal. 

Orion: 

Yeah, we did a lot of things like that. We used to go to the adult theater quite a bit and we were popular there. Every time we came in, people were like, oh they’re here and were excited to see us. 

That was exciting, watching her do things in the theater was another layer of like, oh my god, this is so slutty. We’re in the theater, but it feels so dirty and feels so taboo. It’s so fucking hot and I’m into this. I love it, it was fun. 

Vanessa: 

It sounds like you got the sense that she genuinely wanted that to. 

Orion: 

Yeah, because I’ve experienced the opposite in my first marriage. I did convince my wife at the time to sleep with somebody. And she did it a couple of times. Then once we split up, she expressed resentment about it, saying she really wasn’t into it, felt that I forced her into it. 

That feels even more shameful to me because then I thought she was into it, but she said, no I was just doing this for you. That doesn’t work for me. 

Vanessa: 

Because the arousal of the adventure comes from when you’re both into it. 

Orion: 

Yeah, when we’re both into it and open to it and not ashamed of it. 

Vanessa: 

So let’s make sure we’re on the same page and understanding things like that with lots of slutty things. What do you mean when you say slutty things? You talked about meeting dudes off the internet? You find people on FetLife, Craigslist, Doublelist? 

Orion: 

Yeah. 

Vanessa: 

What else? What are you doing when you go to an adult theater? What is the hookup specifically with guys or other girls? Tell us about the slutty women that turn you on.

Orion: 

In the adult theater case, they had a gloryhole. So we would go into the gloryhole room and I would just watch her blow dick after dick. I didn’t join in when we went together, I would just watch her and I could tell she was so into it. 

There’s this crazy sexual energy when you’re in a fucking gloryhole and your partner is just going to town. It’s like it’s electric in there. I could feel it. She can feel it. The guys on the other side pf the wall can feel it. It’s so intense. It’s just in the air. 

Vanessa: 

I can feel your energy surging even as you describe this. 

Orion: 

Yeah, it became so hot, I knew I wanted that energy. Then other relationships that I’ve had, we would go to swingers clubs, like gangbang night at the club. We’d play with how many guy can you fuck in a night. One night we got up to 29 guys fucking her. That was always a sense of pride for me in that relationship.

I thought it was so fucking hot to get to fuck her after everybody was done. That’s another thing I love, being the guy that goes last. In all my relationships since I started being with slutty women, I’d say, I’m going to wait, I want to be the guy that goes last at the end of the game. 

Vanessa: 

Do you like doing this last at the end of the gangbang while everyone is still there, or do you wait until you come home and then reclaim them in a private kind of way? 

Orion: 

I like in the case of that gangbang, I wasn’t going to fucking wait until I got home. Are you kidding me? 

Vanessa: 

You were ready to fuck right now. 

Orion: 

Yeah, in those kind of environments, I can totally reclaim her there in front of all of those people because it’s still intimate with your partner. It’s like you just zone out. You’re able to reconnect. 

Vanessa: 

Even though there’s conversations going on or other people fucking next to you, especially in swingers clubs. 

Orion: 

Yeah, but usually I’m like, right now, I want you. 

Vanessa: 

I can feel as you’re describing this, and for folks who are just listening, he has some pretty great body gestures happening. As you’re thinking about this, I can tell that you are turned on, that there’s more sexual energy that happens as you’re thinking about this. 

Is that a response to pride in someone that you’re with or do you find that you’re also aroused by or drawn to slutty women who you don’t know, slutty women in porn or slutty women that you see at sex parties? 

Orion: 

Yeah, I’m really drawn to slutty women in porn or at parties. There were plenty of times where we would be at a gloryhole and another woman would come in and I’d be really into a single woman going into a theater. 

There was a hot scene once. My ex-partner, she loved to dance. We go into this theater. They set up a little barrier and put the screen up, and put a massage table on the barrier. And my partner goes through and chooses like six guys to come on the other side of the barrier. And she proceeds to just fuck all these guys in front of the other guys who are all just jacking off. 

This woman comes in with her partner and we asked if she wanted to join us. Then it became a fucking free-for-all. This woman fucked everybody im the theater. So I’m watching my partner, I get my dick in this woman’s mouth, I’m watching these guys just cum all over my partner and it was such great timing while I was getting head. From watching these guys pull out and cum all over my partner, and I cum in this woman’s mouth. Because it was just intoxicating, so hot. That was a very good time. 

Vanessa: 

This sounds like yet another universe that, if you know you know, and if you don’t know, it doesn’t seem like a thing that would exist out there. But it’s beautiful to know that people can access it and there are ways that it can be a source of intoxicating joy in a life-giving way. 

Orion: 

Yeah, I felt like it always brought us closer. We had this shared experience. We always used to say, and I say it with my current partner too, even when we think of all the stuff that I’ve done with Cliff Media, I always say porn ain’t got shit on my personal sex life, what I don’t film is way hotter than what I do film. Sometimes what I do with my current partner I think it’s so fucking hot that if this was a porn, it would be the fucking hottest shit. 

But I get a lot of great video ideas from my personal sex life. 

Vanessa: 

One thing that’s interesting I notice from your description of that event in the adult theater, you had your dick in someone’s mouth, so you’re not exclusively going into these settings just watching. But in the gloryhole story, you’re watching her suck a bunch of dick, but you’re not sucking dick and your dick isn’t through a hole. 

Orion: 

Yeah, in that case I was jacking off. 

Vanessa: 

So is that a cuck dynamic? Or shyness? Or you feeling proud and just enjoying watching her? 

Orion: 

Yeah it was a sense of pride in watching her. And I think at that time, she knew that I did those things, interacting with other guys, but it wasn’t something that we ever did together. She was aware that I liked it, but she never wanted to be around it. 

Unlike one of my current partners, she loves it. I love doing that with her, sucking dick, because she gets it. She understands that I have these other desires and she wants to make me happy because she also finds it so emotionally hot. So I get to experience that for the first time in my life, where I have a very supportive partner who enjoys that kind of play. So I’ve been able to do that a lot more lately. 

Vanessa: 

Where you’re more physically involved? 

Orion: 

Yeah, more physically involved, with my partner and sometimes with the guys. Not just watching now. It’s like hey, we’re all fucking or we’re not even all fucking my partner now. It’s everything. 

Vanessa:

I’m thinking about you describing some of the many different things that you get out of it on a sexual level. You describe some of the ways that you reconnect, act with your partner. It makes you feel closer. 

It’s interesting that it’s so different from the typical story. The traditional monogamous story is that if somebody cheats, that is the cardinal sin that destroys the relationship. Everything is over. And instead you’re saying, oh my gosh, my wife went out and fucked not just one but 29 other people, I want to be with you. 

So why do you think this feels different for you? How do you think you went through the process of making sense of this in your head, when it’s so different from the story that Hollywood has told you?

Orion: 

I think part of it is watching porn. When watching porn, you go down these rabbit holds, amateur content or scenes of real people, not pornstars. Real people filming things and gets me thinking to myself, that’s what I want. How is this being made? People are doing this. 

There’s probably thousands of people who are doing it that aren’t filming it. I think to myself, how do I find that? I think it drove me to try to find that in real life. 

Vanessa: 

Interesting. So porn was actually really educational for you. 

Orion: 

Yeah, absolutely. I think when you’re seeing a lot of amateur content that’s turning you on, there’s a woman that’s doing it, that slutty behavior. I’m loving what she’s doing, how can I find her, or a woman just like her, or even a man that’s just like her. I like that.

Vanessa: 

That’s one of the things I think about a lot when we’re working in Cliff Media is that this is a serious endeavor because people do learn from porn. There’s some ridiculousness to it. Like you said, anything that’s happening on camera is inherently going to be different than what happens in private life and off camera. 

But also the truth of the matter is that the people in the video are human, they have bodies. And if they’re getting together to fuck on camera, that means that there are humans who are slutty out there in the world. So you can find them. 

Orion: 

Exactly, yeah. 

Vanessa: 

So that give you a little sense of empowerment, recognizing what you want. There are some people, I don’t know if they’re like those “strange people” that do porn, but people like that are out there, maybe I can find them. 

Orion: 

Yeah, they’re out there and you just gotta find them. It’s finding communities like FetLife or swingers clubs. You’re going to find tons of sluts at swingers clubs. It’s out there. It’s just being confident enough to go to those kind of places. 

I think sometimes people are uncomfortable going into those kinds of spaces. It’s confusing and scary. 

I remember going to an adult theater for the first time, there’s that stigma of what an adult theater is. It’s not something that feels couple-friendly or that women go to. 

Vanessa: 

The stigma is you walk in, there’s piss on the floor and ten guys watching you. 

Orion: 

Yeah, exactly. And this particular club, this particular adult theater is no longer around anymore, but it was known for couples and was very popular. 

Vanessa: 

I know that there are things that are amazing about being in a relationship with a slutty woman. As a slutty woman myself, I feel gratitude that there are people who like that. But I also know that there are some things that are going to be challenging about it, and that there are boundaries and containers that can be had for it. 

And everybody interacts with it differently. So it could be that you love it when your wife is slutting in your bed but you don’t want it anywhere else. Or you’re content with them slutting anywhere else but not in your bed. Different strokes for different folks. 

So what are some of the things you have found that work for you? If your partner doesn’t tell you about someone that they’re having sex with, is that really hard for you? Do you have relationship agreements that help you navigate around slutty behavior?

Orion: 

I did have a partner who was seeing somebody else but that person wasn’t aware that I existed. My partner and I still connected about her being a slut with this guy. But I felt like I deserved better than that. We were living together, we had this life together. And she was with a guy who didn’t even know I existed. She was acting like she was single, but she wasn’t. That basically eroded the relationship for me. 

In my personal life, I like it best when it’s in my bed. In fact, I tell my current partner, do it on my side of the bed. But I have had friends who, in their relationships, say I don’t want it in my bed. It could be, go to their house, not my house. But I’m very open to it being in my bed. 

Vanessa: 

So what I’m hearing you describe is that it’s important for you to be recognized as a valuable relationship to your partner, even when they’re having sex with a lot of other people. And maybe all of the guys with their dicks through the gloryhole don’t necessary need to know about your long-lasting relationship with this person, but somebody who they’re regularly sleeping with, that is something for you as a relationship agreement. 

It’s so helpful that you know that to be able to communicate that to new partners, because it is so different for anyone. 

Orion: 

None of us want to feel expendable. We want to feel like we’re important to the people that we’re with. And that takes communication. Knowing that you have communication with your partner is really important when you run into issues, boundaries broken, lines being crossed, feelings hurt, and then sometimes there’s no coming back from it. 

I think most of my life, I’ve always loved at least two people at the same time. But when I was in my younger years, it was always infidelity. I was with one person but then I was sleeping with another person and I was in love with them both. 

I think that kind of thing built me up for being in poly relationships. I’ve always loved two people. But now it’s honest and open. It feels way more refreshing to have that instead of having to hide. 

I remember one time I got my palm read and she’s reading my palm and she said, “This is your heart line and it splits out. You have to love two people.” It was interesting because I wondered how she knew that about me. 

Vanessa: 

There are a lot of guys out there who want slutty women. And I know this in part because I’m a slutty woman. I share that with lots of people on the internet and have also connected with lots of other slutty women whose confidence and way of walking in the world I admire. They have shared some stories of guys who are attracted to that. 

It’s such a flip of the stereotype that whore women are going to be bad. It’s like the phrase from Audre Lorde, “Anything you accept about yourself can’t be used as a weapon against you.” If you value that freedom in yourself, there are people who are drawn to that energy. 

I also know that a lot of guys have talked about difficulty finding slutty women. It’s probably unlikely that if you’re working a 9-to-5 job that you’re walking down to the copy machine and talking with Diana in admin about how many different guys she fucked at the gangbang last night. It’s not a common, accepted topic of conversation in most settings. 

Just consider that Diana might actually have fucked 29 guys at the gangbang last night. You might be surprised who is a slutty woman. But there are probably places where it’s easier to find slutty women than meeting at the copy machine at work. 

So what would you recommend for finding these people? You listed a few of the places, like Craigslist, Doublelist and swingers clubs, but more important, once you’ve gone to the right places, how do you know who to connect with, and how do you connect in a way that’s going to produce a health relationship for you with a slutty woman? 

Orion: 

I think it’s a journey because I think there are way more men out here looking for this than there are women. I’m just putting that out as a hypothesis, from the experience of being a guy at a swingers club, with a lot of guys all trying to grab the same attention of the slutty girl dancing on the pole. 

Having the confidence in yourself to say you like slutty women goes a long way. You can find them, they’re out there. You just have to look, work at it. It’s like dating, it takes effort. But it can happen. There are swingers clubs, munchies for kink, events on FetLife. 

Vanessa: 

Okay, let’s imagine though that you’re a guy who has gone to all these different places and they have a Rolodex… Ah, who has a Rolodex? 

Orion: 

They have a contact list on their phone. 

Vanessa: 

That’s right, that’s the words. They have a contact list of 29 girls who are all fucking lots of guys and they decide to start exploring these connections. How do you figure it out? How do you decide what might be a healthy connection, what might be a good way to establish a relationship moving forward through this? 

Orion: 

I would say finding that woman that enjoys being slutty, that enjoys being that has this inherent desire that once she wants to do that. Someone who wants to do it for herself, not for her partner. Or even, she might like the attention that it brings or the sexual tension, but finding a woman who does it for herself and is willing to share a little slice of that with you. 

Vanessa: 

A woman who actually wants to, for her personal pleasure. Someone who is doing it for the joy of it, who would be doing it even without you. Because if it’s someone who wants it, you’re not going to feel like you’re coercing them into it. She’s not going to do it for you. She’s doing it for herself and enjoys it. 

Orion: 

Right. That’s how I feel like what we work at Cliff Media because it’s a fun environment. The scene planning that we do, it’s such a collaborative environment. A lot of the behind-the-scenes stuff that happens at Cliff Media, people have no idea. 

Vanessa: 

I feel like part of what we do here is just go looking for other people who have this kindred spirit energy of “I am slut, hear me roar”.

Orion: 

Especially now when you think about some of the LGBTQ scenes, where you’re finding it’s not just straight dudes and straight women. People are slutty everywhere and they’re all genders, all races, all bodies. People of all different backgrounds can be slutty. 

Vanessa: 

Absolutely. So, dudes, in this case, because this time we’re talking about cis straight dudes who are looking for slutty women – or cis dudes generally who are looking for slutty women, because you’re pansexual but you also like slutty women – So, dudes, you can find them. They’re out there. We do exist. 

Orion: 

They do. 

Vanessa: 

There are lots of places where you can ask, to participate in a gangbang or to participate in a gloryhole, or to hook up at an adult theater, or to show up at a hotel or some guy’s house. And, also there is a deep possibility for a relationship that is healthy, intimate, connected, lasting.

One of the pieces that I’m hearing that was really powerful is the importance of authentic choice by both parties involved in the relationship, when both parties are communicating about it and really wants this to be their form of a relationship.

Thank you so much for sharing with us, Orion. And listeners, thank you for joining us. 

This has been another episode of A Slut’s Guide to Happiness with your host, Vanessa Cliff. 

You can find this wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple and Spotify, as well as on cliffmediaproductions.com

If you’re over the age of 18, you can watch our video content on cliffmediaproductions.com 

And most of all, I invite you to join us in the pleasure of being awkwardly human, naked and without pretense. 

Let’s get free.